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Old Jul 25th 2017, 11:49 PM   #11
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I have had exactly this. It came back from the dealers after a service and new DP levers/reservoir pots put on and it never felt the same, exactly as you describe. I took it back to the dealers twice, they even tried to blame it on the ergonomics and adjustment of the new levers. The last time I took it back, by chance, there was another R on the shop floor. In comparison mine felt soft and they couldn't dispute it.

In the end I remedied it myself, at their cost for the fluid, by bleeding through. Due to the positioning of the ABS pump there are some high spots in the system, but as you say, I was returning mainly small bubbles.

Forget over complicated hand pumps, vacuum and pressurised kits, it will just f*ck everything up. Get a one man bleed kit, essentially a check valve, like this (or similar):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-MS09...rake+bleed+kit

The bottle from this kit is helpful too (but the bleeder is sh*t, stick with the type above):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vizibleed-B...ds=brake+bleed

Once you have that, it's a simple one man operation. Bleed through, master first, front right, then front left calipers. Leave it (overnight, couple days, whatever), ride it and repeat. Another tip that also seemed to help was to strap the brake lever up overnight, again with something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lever-Jamme.../dp/B00MUVLZO2

You really have to be patient with this one. It took me nearly a half liter of brake fluid and bleeding through numerous times to get the feel back to what I perceived was where it was before. Now and then I bleed through on the odd occasion as maintenance and I am more than happy with how the lever feels and brakes perform.

Just my experience, hope this helps
Thanks from Gecko, youngR and Akshuneer

Last edited by Mutt1979; Jul 26th 2017 at 12:01 AM.
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 12:00 AM   #12
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^1+
Yep, that's how it is.
Instead of using a Sealey bleeder thing I replaced all nipples with Stahlbus bleeder valves. A bit expensive, but they work as supposed.

For front brakes, I use a strap over night. For rear brake, I hang the caliber as high as possible and hang a weight to the lever.
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 06:42 AM   #13
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Another problem is air leaking in through the bleed nipple threads, preventing you from successfully bleeding the system, when you crack them partially open. Some people use PTFE on the threads but I don't like the idea of any of that stuff getting into the system. A lot of aftermarket/stainless steel nipples are prone to this, despite being the correct thread.
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 08:56 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by topolino View Post
Another problem is air leaking in through the bleed nipple threads, preventing you from successfully bleeding the system, when you crack them partially open. Some people use PTFE on the threads but I don't like the idea of any of that stuff getting into the system. A lot of aftermarket/stainless steel nipples are prone to this, despite being the correct thread.
+1

When I bled my system, you only need to crack them. In fact if you do open them too far, you should noticably see the extra air, good point
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 11:59 AM   #15
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I'm going to bleed the entire front brake assembly one more time - with an additional twist suggested here on the forum.

I've never tried strapping the brake lever overnight. For those of you have suggested this tip: do you mean to pull the lever in, strap it in place, and leave it overnight - AFTER bleeding the entire system?

Out of curiosity, what exactly does this accomplish?

Thanks for all the input... looking to hear more..
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 12:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Akshuneer View Post
I'm going to bleed the entire front brake assembly one more time - with an additional twist suggested here on the forum.

I've never tried strapping the brake lever overnight. For those of you have suggested this tip: do you mean to pull the lever in, strap it in place, and leave it overnight - AFTER bleeding the entire system?

Out of curiosity, what exactly does this accomplish?

Thanks for all the input... looking to hear more..
In theory air bubbles in the system are getting compressed and therefore getting smaller. This should help to make them wandering up.
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 01:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Mutt1979 View Post
I have had exactly this. It came back from the dealers after a service and new DP levers/reservoir pots put on and it never felt the same, exactly as you describe. I took it back to the dealers twice, they even tried to blame it on the ergonomics and adjustment of the new levers. The last time I took it back, by chance, there was another R on the shop floor. In comparison mine felt soft and they couldn't dispute it.

In the end I remedied it myself, at their cost for the fluid, by bleeding through. Due to the positioning of the ABS pump there are some high spots in the system, but as you say, I was returning mainly small bubbles.

Forget over complicated hand pumps, vacuum and pressurised kits, it will just f*ck everything up. Get a one man bleed kit, essentially a check valve, like this (or similar):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-MS09...rake+bleed+kit

The bottle from this kit is helpful too (but the bleeder is sh*t, stick with the type above):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vizibleed-B...ds=brake+bleed

Once you have that, it's a simple one man operation. Bleed through, master first, front right, then front left calipers. Leave it (overnight, couple days, whatever), ride it and repeat. Another tip that also seemed to help was to strap the brake lever up overnight, again with something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lever-Jamme.../dp/B00MUVLZO2

You really have to be patient with this one. It took me nearly a half liter of brake fluid and bleeding through numerous times to get the feel back to what I perceived was where it was before. Now and then I bleed through on the odd occasion as maintenance and I am more than happy with how the lever feels and brakes perform.

Just my experience, hope this helps

I thought the right way to do it is from the farthest away to the closest (left caliper, right caliper and then the master)
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Old Jul 26th 2017, 11:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by rrgermanlv View Post
I thought the right way to do it is from the farthest away to the closest (left caliper, right caliper and then the master)
Apples, oranges.......

There's no telling where the air could be in the system.

For me at least, if you bleed the farthest first you would just keep pumping until you've displaced the entire system, otherwise you may be leaving air behind in the lines(?), then the closer bleed points to remove the air in the high spots.

I went closest to farthest because if you start at the reservoir then you are 'chasing' the air out of the system ensuring that what you are putting in and displacing the system with is free of air/bubbles.

On a long run, such as down to the front caliper for example, if you have bled the front left already, as you bleed through the front right its possible you could be leaving air to travel back up the line to the front left caliper. We can argue this all day.

I'm just saying how I did it, I fixed my problem. No speculation, I think/I thought or 'this is how it should be done' bs. It's fixed, I did it myself, this was how, period
Thanks from Gecko

Last edited by Mutt1979; Jul 27th 2017 at 12:02 AM.
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Old Jul 27th 2017, 01:03 PM   #19
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Bleed further first if you're flushing the entire system, bleed closest first if you just want air out quickly.

I end up having the bleed the brakes and clutch about every 2 months. Think time for a full flush.
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Old Aug 1st 2017, 07:05 PM   #20
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Mutt1979...as you suggested, I'm going to try bleeding the front brake several times using a one man bleed kit with a check valve. Never tried it this way, but it seems to be the easiest and most straight forward way to go about it.

If that doesn't solve the problem, I'll look to rebuild / repair the master cylinder. I have never attempted this before, but it seems straightforward enough. Perhaps one of the seals has gone bad.

I'm using the Rizoma NEXT fluid tanks and I have DP levers on the bike. Does that change anything in terms of the front brake master cylinder? Will the master cylinder itself be different from the stock one that originally came with the Pani?
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