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Old Apr 21st 2015, 08:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
I only ask because it seems as if the questions/comments/hypothetical things you are talking about are coming from someone who has never actually raced before (apparently I am wrong).

As a racer you should be fully aware of what I am talking about and know that at no point in time, would anyone, regardless of trans/electronics, be downshifting while on the gas accelerating.

It ("it" being defined as track strategy and the approach to cornering) simply doesn't work/happen like that.

You downshift into the appropriate gear as you are braking, then accelerate out of the corner while upshifting as necessary. It is that simple. It doesn't matter if somebody is a Novice club racer with a bone stock R6 or Rossi onboard the M1, that is how cornering is handled.
No problem at all -- I am aware how outlandish these hypotheticals may seem, and perhaps it is beyond the scope of what this thread was intended for (I apologize for that), but I do believe there is untapped potential in this area. Even if this functionality were available, it would likely only offer an advantage at critical turns leading into long straights. Additionally, even if this were available, I would likely not be able to utilize it to a point that it would provide a competitive advantage, but it would be great to have an opportunity to test!

I would like to tap into your expertise a bit. In an ideal scenario, max power would be both available and usable immediately coming out of a turn, and sustainable until the next braking point at the end of a straight. If this were the case, would it affect how you approach cornering and shift points?
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 08:15 AM   #62
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Aww, I think we are seeing the disconnect here. Problem is max power isn't usable at the apex of the corner where you pick up the throttle. Not due to the output of the engine, but due to traction limitations of the tire.

So as you exit the corner and stand up the bike, you are increasing revs in direct correlation to a reduction of lean angle, and an increase of available grip. Aside from the temporary loss of drive, chassis imbalance etc that would happen from a downshift, you simply couldn't use that power at that time. By the time you can, you have already hit maximum thrust the current way.

So you would end up downshifting and having to feather the throttle due to traction limitations. So once again, it's easier and faster to simply have the right gear going into the corner, and not be killing your drive changing gears on the way out. And the split second spent shifting would be a huge inhibitor to your drive heading out of the corner. More efficient to be in your exit gear going in.

Does that kinda make sense? I'm having a hard time trying to put into words what I'm seeing in my head.
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Last edited by shakazulu12; Apr 21st 2015 at 08:25 AM.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 08:24 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Duck41 View Post
I would like to tap into your expertise a bit. In an ideal scenario, max power would be both available and usable immediately coming out of a turn, and sustainable until the next braking point at the end of a straight. If this were the case, would it affect how you approach cornering and shift points?
That is a physically impossible scenario due to how motorcycles corner and the lean angle required.

Max power is NEVER available immediately coming out of a turn, and never will be. There are guys who even highside 250's.

Cornering is balance of trying to negotiate available traction by manipulating the brakes and throttle in a ratio equal to the % of lean angle you are adding or subtracting. That has been a fact for as long as motorcycles have been going around corners, and that fact will always remain.

Any discussion based upon contradicting that fact is unnecessary as it is an impossibility.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 10:28 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by shakazulu12 View Post
Aww, I think we are seeing the disconnect here. Problem is max power isn't usable at the apex of the corner where you pick up the throttle. Not due to the output of the engine, but due to traction limitations of the tire.

So as you exit the corner and stand up the bike, you are increasing revs in direct correlation to a reduction of lean angle, and an increase of available grip. Aside from the temporary loss of drive, chassis imbalance etc that would happen from a downshift, you simply couldn't use that power at that time. By the time you can, you have already hit maximum thrust the current way.

So you would end up downshifting and having to feather the throttle due to traction limitations. So once again, it's easier and faster to simply have the right gear going into the corner, and not be killing your drive changing gears on the way out. And the split second spent shifting would be a huge inhibitor to your drive heading out of the corner. More efficient to be in your exit gear going in.

Does that kinda make sense? I'm having a hard time trying to put into words what I'm seeing in my head.
I agree, max power is not usable at the apex of a corner where you pick up the throttle –I was hoping to build upon this ideal theoretical to illustrate that racing strategy would very likely be modified if this were a possibility. As we know, various lines can be taken around a corner, which can shift the point at which maximum power could theoretically be used if it were instantly available. If we have two bikes with the exact same performance, but had one rider use the geometric apex and the other rider use the delayed apex, the rider who took the delayed apex would actually be ahead by the time they had reached the next turn, provided they were exiting onto a long straight. With this in mind, if we were to imagine that max power were available directly after emerging from a corner (i.e, no waiting for revs to climb once straightened up), we would see there is even more advantage to be gained in taking a delayed apex so as to reduce required lean angle/lean duration and more quickly acquire a position with more tire traction, which would enable the ability to utilize this instant power as soon as possible. I am admittedly talking a very small duration of time here, but there is potential to reduce time nonetheless.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 10:58 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Duck41 View Post
I agree, max power is not usable at the apex of a corner where you pick up the throttle –I was hoping to build upon this ideal theoretical to illustrate that racing strategy would very likely be modified if this were a possibility. As we know, various lines can be taken around a corner, which can shift the point at which maximum power could theoretically be used if it were instantly available. If we have two bikes with the exact same performance, but had one rider use the geometric apex and the other rider use the delayed apex, the rider who took the delayed apex would actually be ahead by the time they had reached the next turn, provided they were exiting onto a long straight. With this in mind, if we were to imagine that max power were available directly after emerging from a corner (i.e, no waiting for revs to climb once straightened up), we would see there is even more advantage to be gained in taking a delayed apex so as to reduce required lean angle/lean duration and more quickly acquire a position with more tire traction, which would enable the ability to utilize this instant power as soon as possible. I am admittedly talking a very small duration of time here, but there is potential to reduce time nonetheless.
I have zero idea what you are talking about.
you will highside to the moon if max power is available on corner exit.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 12:13 PM   #66
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Still ignoring the fact that the person who was already in the proper gear would still have better drive than the one who was trying to downshift before they could accelerate.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 01:20 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by reganc View Post
I have zero idea what you are talking about.
you will highside to the moon if max power is available on corner exit.
I'm referring to the point at which maximum power could be used (i.e., where there is sufficient traction), thereby preventing the risk of high side. A higher cornering speed would extend the time it would take to reach this point, whereas a lower cornering speed would enable the ability to get on the gas sooner. By the time this point is reached, throttle is applied and the rider must wait for revs to climb to the next shift point. It is here that a short interim exists between the point of applying full throttle and the point at which maximum power is achieved.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 01:20 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by shakazulu12 View Post
Still ignoring the fact that the person who was already in the proper gear would still have better drive than the one who was trying to downshift before they could accelerate.
I am taking this into consideration. All things equal, if acceleration could occur at maximum power for even a fraction of a second longer than would otherwise be possible, then an advantage could be gained. It would be impossible to already be in the “proper” gear of this theoretical scenario without the ability to arrive at (or close to) maximum power instantly, since doing so would exert forces that would be counterproductive to achieving a lower time (e.g., attempting to take a fast 2nd gear corner in 1st gear). There would be too much force and too little traction at lean –it is only the point at which maximum throttle could be applied that the lower gear (likely closely matched in ratio) could be utilized to arrive at maximum power more rapidly.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 01:51 PM   #69
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Except it still doesn't work like that. You have MX experience right? What happens to the rear wheel when you feed in power, vs dump the clutch? Slip or grip?

While your new line can use full power quicker (from a distance perspective), it's also going to be in the corner longer (to brake slow enough to square it off) and off the throttle longer. You are also going to give up tons of track position during the process. You can see something like this just watching a GP race. Notice the lines they take in a crowd vs when they are circulating by themselves. It's all a give and take and you are only considering the application of one singular variable and ignoring tons of others such as geometry, traction, weight transfer, and overall laptime. It's why Chaotic asked if you were an engineer and your race experience. Generally speaking these types of discussions are started by engineer types that don't race if you hang around moto forums long enough.

Last edited by shakazulu12; Apr 21st 2015 at 02:02 PM.
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Old Apr 21st 2015, 04:06 PM   #70
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Fair points. Track position would definitely have to be taken into consideration, as it would certainly leave the inside open for the taking. I believe I've taken your other variables into consideration, although it is quite possible I'm being too optimistic about certain aspects, including whether any benefit from this functionality could actually be harnessed in a competitive race environment. It seems likely that single-speed electric motor equipped superbikes will render the discussion expired long before I have a chance to see these hypotheticals tested.

Last edited by Duck41; Apr 21st 2015 at 04:08 PM.
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