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Old Jan 26th 2018, 04:12 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thamer View Post
First I am glad the rider is okay.

Now I have CF RotoBox wheels. I only track my bike and I have never had an issue. I am sure many here have had CF wheels for years without issue. I am sure some have had issues. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water cause of this. Unless this is like the 3rd failure in 3 months and now there is a recall on a particular series/ batch of them.

I'd like to see BST get involved with what happened to try and get a definitive cause.

I'm sure heat can be a contributing factor. Having said that I've been in the Aviation industry for almost 3 decades and Carbon Fiber is a staple of design and manufacturing. I can't see a 180 plus HP motorcycle engine creating more fatigue than lets say 5Gs and 80,000 pounds of thrust. Or, the 400 plus miles and hour a rotor blade turns on a helicopter.

Just saying.
what is the service life of a helo blades?
I know nothing about your field of expertise , but I am assuming the mfg process for composite blades is a bit more impressive than these wheels due to the fact they cost 1000x's more and require a huge facility to make.
I'm thinking if motorcycle wheels were manufactured, inspected , and replaced like your aviation parts we would see much less of this stuff.
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 04:13 AM   #12
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Look what happens to the carbon wishbones on F1 cars when they hit curbs too hard..The wheels are ok..I wouldn't track a ford GT with the carbon wheels. Hit something the wrong way and it cracks..Alloys will bend...
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 04:23 AM   #13
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near in weight, more cheap, more beauty and more safe.
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 04:31 AM   #14
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Yeah, but that's THIS wheel! Ha ha!


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Old Jan 26th 2018, 04:42 AM   #15
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I'm really glad the rider referenced is OK, I know him and he's a great guy. As far as rear brakes overheating, that's something that is not uncommon. I have no idea how it happened in this particular case, but I've personally seen it happen at least 5 times both on street and track bikes, and every time it was because someone adjusted the rear brake pedal without ensuring there was still slack in the plunger rod going into the master cylinder.

I'll just put this out there as a public service announcement, not related to the incident referenced here specifically, but more generally in the hopes that it may prevent someone from making a big mistake:

It's very common for someone to want to adjust the height of their rear brake pedal to fit them better, and it "looks" like it's as simple as just loosening the adjusting nut on the pedal pivot, moving it up or down, and then tightening it back up. BUT it's not that simple, you also have to adjust the length of the plunger rod to ensure that at rest there is absolutely no pressure being put on the plunger. If there is even a slight amount of pressure there, the rear brake pads will be rubbing against the rotor all the time, which in motion will generate heat, the heat first warms up the rear caliper assembly, which heats up the brake fluid, which expands and puts more pressure on the pads, and so on. At some point the rear brake either locks up, or in the case of it being on the track at high speeds the power being generated to the rear wheel overcomes the braking force and just basically chews through the rear brake pad, destroys the rotor, and if it continues the bare brake pad rubs metal-on-metal on the rotor creating much spark/heat and even fire if it ignites plastic or similar things in the area. I've seen this ruin wheels, tires, melt rear huggers, melt speed sensor wires, ruin rotors, blow out caliper seals, etc. So be careful and do it right if you want to adjust your rear brake pedal height!
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 10:44 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thamer View Post
First I am glad the rider is okay.

Now I have CF RotoBox wheels. I only track my bike and I have never had an issue. I am sure many here have had CF wheels for years without issue. I am sure some have had issues. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water cause of this. Unless this is like the 3rd failure in 3 months and now there is a recall on a particular series/ batch of them.

I'd like to see BST get involved with what happened to try and get a definitive cause.

I'm sure heat can be a contributing factor. Having said that I've been in the Aviation industry for almost 3 decades and Carbon Fiber is a staple of design and manufacturing. I can't see a 180 plus HP motorcycle engine creating more fatigue than lets say 5Gs and 80,000 pounds of thrust. Or, the 400 plus miles and hour a rotor blade turns on a helicopter.

Just saying.
Aviation and high end motor sport eg: F1, MotoGP etc have alot more QA/QC, maintenance schedules (NDT, pre-flight inspections, time factor replacement) and documented tracability from start to finish of the products life.

The Common racer would be no where near this level.
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 12:28 PM   #17
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Now i am slightly worried as I have had a caliper binding situation creating moderate heat and I have BST wheels on my r.
I think i will back off on the the minimal lever free-play that i prefer
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 01:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by jarelj View Post
I'm really glad the rider referenced is OK, I know him and he's a great guy. As far as rear brakes overheating, that's something that is not uncommon. I have no idea how it happened in this particular case, but I've personally seen it happen at least 5 times both on street and track bikes, and every time it was because someone adjusted the rear brake pedal without ensuring there was still slack in the plunger rod going into the master cylinder.

I'll just put this out there as a public service announcement, not related to the incident referenced here specifically, but more generally in the hopes that it may prevent someone from making a big mistake:

It's very common for someone to want to adjust the height of their rear brake pedal to fit them better, and it "looks" like it's as simple as just loosening the adjusting nut on the pedal pivot, moving it up or down, and then tightening it back up. BUT it's not that simple, you also have to adjust the length of the plunger rod to ensure that at rest there is absolutely no pressure being put on the plunger. If there is even a slight amount of pressure there, the rear brake pads will be rubbing against the rotor all the time, which in motion will generate heat, the heat first warms up the rear caliper assembly, which heats up the brake fluid, which expands and puts more pressure on the pads, and so on. At some point the rear brake either locks up, or in the case of it being on the track at high speeds the power being generated to the rear wheel overcomes the braking force and just basically chews through the rear brake pad, destroys the rotor, and if it continues the bare brake pad rubs metal-on-metal on the rotor creating much spark/heat and even fire if it ignites plastic or similar things in the area. I've seen this ruin wheels, tires, melt rear huggers, melt speed sensor wires, ruin rotors, blow out caliper seals, etc. So be careful and do it right if you want to adjust your rear brake pedal height!
I'd suspect this is right on the money. I have the Pramac CNC rear sets and when I first mounted them, I based the adjustment off of how sensitive I setup my motocross brakes.

However, there is a limited adjustment window here. There has to be alot (way more than I want) more play in the travel then you would think. I set mine up like I always had in the past on all my race bikes, however, in one 20min session I destroyed the pads, caliper, lines, rotor and had hot metal chunks slung all over inside the wheel. It was pretty bad, but lesson learned.

I'm hoping the rear brakes on my new V4 next month are better, but I suspect it will be the same.
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 03:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thamer View Post
First I am glad the rider is okay.

Now I have CF RotoBox wheels. I only track my bike and I have never had an issue. I am sure many here have had CF wheels for years without issue. I am sure some have had issues. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water cause of this. Unless this is like the 3rd failure in 3 months and now there is a recall on a particular series/ batch of them.

I'd like to see BST get involved with what happened to try and get a definitive cause.

I'm sure heat can be a contributing factor. Having said that I've been in the Aviation industry for almost 3 decades and Carbon Fiber is a staple of design and manufacturing. I can't see a 180 plus HP motorcycle engine creating more fatigue than lets say 5Gs and 80,000 pounds of thrust. Or, the 400 plus miles and hour a rotor blade turns on a helicopter.

Just saying.
I agree with Thamer. I'm a Stress Engineer and we use carbon fiber in an epoxy matrix all the time. It's very fatigue resistant and strong, when manufactured properly. If you're conducting heat to the wheel from something that is glowing red, and easily exceeding 350F, you better insulate it or make it out of titanium or steel if you expect it to survive. A careful investigation should be done, but there is a very good chance that any CF or Al wheel would have failed in those conditions.
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Old Jan 26th 2018, 07:58 PM   #20
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Thamer - I thought rotor blades are hollow aluminum... on the subject of the wheel failure - I think we’ll see that the failure was caused by a faulty part which would be subject to a warranty claim that will be honored. I don’t think the rider would’ve unknowingly had his foot on the brake for that long a period to cause the failure.


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