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Old Dec 4th 2017, 10:41 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by AmpForE View Post
Hence, why Ducati started with a 999, hmm, let's go to 1098, oh wait, again not enough, 1198, hmm, the lighter weight is not making up for the lack of power, fuck it, 1299 - 205HP! scratch that, 195 HP and I can't make euro4/5 in current price point and keep up with the power. Let's do a V4, but alas, 1100 cc, gots to keep the power advantage, let the others come up to us.
You're operating under the guise that there is some arbitrary limit that is being imposed somewhere.. They are road bikes. Those limits are only for racing. Manf. are open to build w/e they think the consumer will like.. perhaps like a bit higher torque V4? Although a bit annoying for some, I like that they are OK with bucking the trend/norm and just doing what they think will be "better" and more favorable. Just because other manf's decide to align their engines specifically with their racing side of the house, doesn't mean it has to be that way. They do it because it's more cost effective to do so. Which means, their focus is more strictly on the bottom line vs. the consumer..

On the racing side, all those details are worked out behind closed doors when they make up the rules. Twins have always given up RPM in favor of CC. It's not really akin to cheating when you're limiting one side of the equation. It's simple math/science. With higher RPM comes more HP, which is why RPM is limited in many different classes of racing.

If a manf. wants to be the biggest swinging dick in town, more power to them. Only benefits the rest of us with more cool shit to play with .

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Last edited by MotoX183; Dec 4th 2017 at 11:31 AM.
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 10:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by reganc View Post
asking a Ducati Forum which bike is better you are only going to get one answer likewise you ask the same question on the Ape forum.

I think the Ape is a nice bike and very smooth but it's heavy and IMHO feels a little dated, I expect the latest Duc to crush it in tests and so it should it's the latest greatest and at a very high starting point in $$ terms
I don't necessarily think that is 100% the case. I mean, yeah, some opinion is swayed in one direction, but I think people can identify when something is truly a step ahead, which the Pani V4 is in comparison to the RSV4.

For example, the best available superbike right now is the HP4 Race, hands down. As far as performance/specs go, there is a pretty clear leader. Maybe some 1299 SL owners may feel otherwise, but it's undeniable. Now, I still think the Ducati's are the sexiest of the bunch and extremely high performing, but they can't claim the crown in this particular category.

It may change down the road, but that is all part of the fun, right?
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 11:42 AM   #23
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But the HP4 Race isn't street legal whereas the 1299SL is. I get the point you're tryin to make but it wasn't a fair comparison.
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 11:58 AM   #24
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HP4=track only
1299SL=Street legal
Apples and Oranges
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 12:06 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Halo2 View Post
Which all they probably do to the v4r is make it a screamer, easiest and cheapest way to make more HP and smoother delivery.
That's not how power delivery works. Screamers 4's are pretty much the worst you can get when it comes to smooth delivery. Less vibrations into the chassis and seat, way more into the drivetrain and tire.
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 12:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by double0 View Post
But the HP4 Race isn't street legal whereas the 1299SL is. I get the point you're tryin to make but it wasn't a fair comparison.
Originally Posted by jpanigale View Post
HP4=track only
1299SL=Street legal
Apples and Oranges
Yep, you guys are 100% correct. I was just comparing bike to bike performance. 1299SL definitely takes the cake in the street category.
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 12:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TurboLag View Post
That's not how power delivery works. Screamers 4's are pretty much the worst you can get when it comes to smooth delivery. Less vibrations into the chassis and seat, way more into the drivetrain and tire.
Obviously didn’t read the link, the only ducati in MotoGP recently to win the championship GP7 was a screamer engine.

Last edited by Halo2; Dec 4th 2017 at 01:59 PM.
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 01:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by AmpForE View Post
Hence, why Ducati started with a 999, hmm, let's go to 1098, oh wait, again not enough, 1198, hmm, the lighter weight is not making up for the lack of power, fuck it, 1299 - 205HP! scratch that, 195 HP and I can't make euro4/5 in current price point and keep up with the power. Let's do a V4, but alas, 1100 cc, gots to keep the power advantage, let the others come up to us.
What makes and good race bike/engine doesn't always translate to a good road bike. I would rather have a CC bump outside race rules that will make the bike better for where the majority of people will ride it. Mid range torque is will be used far more than HP at the top of the rev range on the road. If you want to race buy an R but for everyone else that rides roads and track days why would you worry about confined by race rules when building an engine outside them would yield better results.

Look at MV Agusta, there best selling sports bike is the F3 800 yet it doesn't fit into any race category, and is arguably better suited for nearly everything than the 675 (I won a 675, and the 15,000 scream it gets going is amazing, but it isn't as good on the street and you got to get the engine spinning up above 8k to get it to come alive).
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 03:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Halo2 View Post
Obviously didnít read the link, the only ducati in MotoGP recently to win the championship GP7 was a screamer engine.
True that, oh and that's what she said too...
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Old Dec 4th 2017, 04:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by F3BobaFett View Post
What makes and good race bike/engine doesn't always translate to a good road bike. I would rather have a CC bump outside race rules that will make the bike better for where the majority of people will ride it. Mid range torque is will be used far more than HP at the top of the rev range on the road. If you want to race buy an R but for everyone else that rides roads and track days why would you worry about confined by race rules when building an engine outside them would yield better results.



Look at MV Agusta, there best selling sports bike is the F3 800 yet it doesn't fit into any race category, and is arguably better suited for nearly everything than the 675 (I won a 675, and the 15,000 scream it gets going is amazing, but it isn't as good on the street and you got to get the engine spinning up above 8k to get it to come alive).


I agree. One of my favorite bikes was my Speed Triple. The 05/06 models had 90% of its 77 ft pounds of torque at 3000 rpm. It didn't have much up above 9k but below that I didn't have much of a problem keeping up with people. And honestly, on the street how many times are you up above 10k.

My original point is in comparing the RSV4 to Ducati's V4 is not an apples to apples comparison. With an extra 100 cc you would expect the Ducati to have more power and midrange. But that may not make it a better bike. There's more to compare. I'm betting the Aprilia is smoother than this V4 with the double pump firing order, although I really hope it's just as smooth as the RSV4. Aprilia also has 9 years of chassis development where this is Ducati's first year. The desmo used a trellis frame.

In the end it should be a very fun comparison, and a truer comparison will come in 2019 or 20 when the other manufacturers have a chance to react, if they decide to. Ducati's price point puts it in a league of its own, and might suggest that Ducati is going after a the upper end of the Superbike market. The other manufactures may just let them have that corner of the market.
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