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Old Nov 25th 2011, 05:49 PM   #1
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Is 195 HP for the tested first prototype only?

Usually, for the claim of the engine HP value, 195HP in this case, is it min,max or typical value or just on a first tested prototype during the development stage?

When come to production spread (be it coming from engine mechanical tolerences and electronics engine management system (EMS)), how will the HP spread be like?

i'm beginning to think if there is a bell-shape curve for a HP spread of all production engines...

Just some trash talking and discussion while a long wait for the 1199
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 05:31 AM   #2
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Well crank figures are always used as a headline grabber. Hmm...195bhp. Taking into account mass machining tolerances as opposed to a blueprinted engine and then drive train losses to the rear wheel and the general concensus is you ought to see around 170- 175bhp at the back end in stock form. This could doubtless be improved through some minor top end engine work a full exhaust system less CAT, ECU reflash with some mapping changes. A great many tuned 1098Rs put out this much RWHP, a bike which originally boasted 180bhp (crank output), so its anyone guess what you could expect from the Superquadro but maybe 185-190hp would be achievable without spending a king's ransom to recover the next 5hp.
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 08:31 AM   #3
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....just expanding on the full exhaust addition,...ducati are quoting 5% increase in bhp which takes it to 204.7 bhp, for the addition of the full termi system.

Traditionally 10% is quoted for mechanical engine losses,....so about 184 ish should be expected,...with the full exhaust.

On the new engine (if Ive got this right) has a motoGP vaccum pump to maintain a constant crankcase pressure,also reducing some of the mechanical losses....

Time will tell when someone get this on a dyno....
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 03:04 PM   #4
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HP quotes are always the maximum produced (same for the torque). I am pretty confident that the engines will produce the claimed HP +/- 1-2%.
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 10:24 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 512BB View Post
HP quotes are always the maximum produced (same for the torque). I am pretty confident that the engines will produce the claimed HP +/- 1-2%.
This is tight but will be really good!
To make a proto 195 hp is one thing to keep hp consistent/same for all production units (engine) is another in-depth know-how in manufacturing
All thanks and remember those working hard in the 1199 engine factory line(s)!!
ever heard once that in MV Agusta, they measure every single piston made..maybe should plan a visit to ducati factory someday

Maybe,it may not be logical for ducati or others to test every single engines' HP output at the end of the engine production line.i mean if there are a few units putting out 180 instead of 195(+/-1%) are they going to bin them? No way...cost is already spend putting them together...keeping all machined engine components tolerances tight to specification at the first place before assembly is a more efficient way to go...i guess...

Remember the con-rod issue with Aprilia RSV4 R during testing by bike magazine riders?
Maybe all this bike test(s) is to allow OEM factory to gain certain level of confidence of their production line.

Last edited by Titaniumvalves; Nov 26th 2011 at 10:53 PM.
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 06:06 AM   #6
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I would say that Ducati has the in-depth know-how in manufacturing and engines. They have been at it at a high level for quite some time (design and manufacturing). As the engine is designed/tested and the manufacturing sorted, not every engine needs to be tested 100%. A sampling based on statistics will do and well understood in all industries.

A 15 Hp difference will be way out of the norm and I would say indicative of something major.

I am aware of the the RSV4 (it was all engines) and I have one myself. Aprilia for the first time designed the engine in house - they used to use Rotax in the past. As such, I would say their level of sophistication and maturity was/is definitely not as high as Ducati. It was a parts vendor that supplied rods that were straightened after they realized they were bent. This necessitated an engine change for many reasons which I won't get into.

Engines are all about design and tolerances and I stick with my prediction that all 1199 engines will be within +/- 1% of their claimed Hp.
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Old Dec 4th 2011, 08:38 PM   #7
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I would like to think we could get this up to 200+ range like the Desmo, granted we'll only have a twin, but super twin. Anyone knowledgable enough to estimate what this would take? ECU changes would seem to me enough, to boost 5-10hp?
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Old Dec 5th 2011, 02:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by 512BB View Post
I would say that Ducati has the in-depth know-how in manufacturing and engines. They have been at it at a high level for quite some time (design and manufacturing). As the engine is designed/tested and the manufacturing sorted, not every engine needs to be tested 100%. A sampling based on statistics will do and well understood in all industries.

A 15 Hp difference will be way out of the norm and I would say indicative of something major.

I am aware of the the RSV4 (it was all engines) and I have one myself. Aprilia for the first time designed the engine in house - they used to use Rotax in the past. As such, I would say their level of sophistication and maturity was/is definitely not as high as Ducati. It was a parts vendor that supplied rods that were straightened after they realized they were bent. This necessitated an engine change for many reasons which I won't get into.

Engines are all about design and tolerances and I stick with my prediction that all 1199 engines will be within +/- 1% of their claimed Hp.
Yes perhaps, but this figure is still at the crank. Drive train losses mean you will see a figure more like 170-175bhp at the rear wheel. This can only be augmented by the use of a different or remapped ECU and a full exhaust system that dispenses with the cat. If you are seeking more, then some top end work will be needed (cams dialling in, gas flowed heads, blueprinting the engine etc) and then things start to get very expensive to eek out each extra hp to bring it up to or beyond the crank figures quoted.

Last edited by topolino; Dec 5th 2011 at 02:46 AM.
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Old Dec 12th 2011, 03:54 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by topolino View Post
Yes perhaps, but this figure is still at the crank. Drive train losses mean you will see a figure more like 170-175bhp at the rear wheel. This can only be augmented by the use of a different or remapped ECU and a full exhaust system that dispenses with the cat. If you are seeking more, then some top end work will be needed (cams dialling in, gas flowed heads, blueprinting the engine etc) and then things start to get very expensive to eek out each extra hp to bring it up to or beyond the crank figures quoted.
Nevertheless,Thanks for the insight...
i try to keep the point within engine....the external losses may dilute the discussion
(5/195) = this is a -2.5% from the 195hp claimed.

From Cycle News by Domenicali (Ducati Managing Director)

Quote:

"It was a big surprise for us, as well. So, frankly speaking, we said, ‘OK should we say 190, should we say 195 horsepower? We had to state, to declare what our instrument said. This is what usually happens two months after the beginning of production...the hp level goes down. But once again the limit, we have 195 hp. So our engine right now has been tested, or bench tested, the difference is 25 hp versus the same engine installed on the 1198."

Unquote
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