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Old Dec 7th 2012, 11:02 AM   #21
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Every time someone thinks the pinacle of engine development has come, new materials or technologies arrive to send them skulking toward the nearest dark corner.

In answer to a rm4two's question, Horsepower (an artificial construct) equals torque (in lb*ft) multiplied by rpm divided by 5252. So the BMW at it's 14k rpm ceiling making 230 hp is making 86.3 lb*ft of torque. To make equivalent horsepower at 12k rpm the Ducati would need to produce 100.7 lb*ft of torque. An achievable number.

Carbon internals. Direct cylinder injection. Pneumatic springs. Variable cam timing. Lots of things out there still to be toyed with!
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Old Dec 7th 2012, 11:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Cloner View Post
Every time someone thinks the pinacle of engine development has come, new materials or technologies arrive to send them skulking toward the nearest dark corner.

In answer to a rm4two's question, Horsepower (an artificial construct) equals torque (in lb*ft) multiplied by rpm divided by 5252. So the BMW at it's 14k rpm ceiling making 230 hp is making 86.3 lb*ft of torque. To make equivalent horsepower at 12k rpm the Ducati would need to produce 100.7 lb*ft of torque. An achievable number.

Carbon internals. Direct cylinder injection. Pneumatic springs. Variable cam timing. Lots of things out there still to be toyed with!
While I agree with those possibilities to improve performance, torque has never been the problem; RPMs are. With the 1198 we already know that 97 lb*ft @ 8K rpms 1) wasn't enough and 2) was a wheelie machine. Therefore, I don't see how 100+ lb*ft @ 12k RPMs will be any better?
Getting a twin to spin 14k+ rpms I believe is a possibility, but doing so reliably and in a usable fashion is the tricky part and that's where Ducati/Audi will spend a boat load of $$. At the end of the day everything comes down to $$$ and I would not be surprised that someday in the not so distant future the decision is made that development costs of the L twin have outweighed it's performance and they go in another direction.
I love the L twin and my Pani and really really hope they can make/keep it competitive therefore, there will be no "skulking toward the nearest dark corner" on my part LOL should they figure it out. However, for the long term I just don't see it as being cost effective.

Last edited by rm4two; Dec 7th 2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old Dec 7th 2012, 12:40 PM   #23
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The Panigale has to move a massive 112cm piston 2 x 60.8cm every rpm, as opposed to the BMW only moving ones that are only 80cm 2 x 49.7cms. That is a lot of mass at 14,000 rpms, just sayin'.
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Old Dec 8th 2012, 08:40 AM   #24
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I agree with Cloner. There is lots of technology and materials out there, yet to be applied to engines for mortals (or poor immortals). As an R&D engineer I have view to many different aspects of technology from other applications. It's only a matter of time and budget.

The real question is: does Ducati/Audi have the determination and the cash to stay true to their L2 heritage and invent and engineer their way through the tough challenges or do they choose an easier/cheaper less traditional path to more performance.

How much are we willing to pay for exquisite Ducati L2 technology just to keep up to the I4's? The Pani is a bit pricey, but I love every aspect of mine. I appreciate all the thought and engineering that went into designing and producing it. Of course it's not perfect, it's Italian, but is has a soul that few machine designs ever achieve. My 996S was another with a soul, however it was a much less friendly one.

I'm sure if Ducati makes a production L4 it will also be exquisite and maybe even achieve the status of the L2. In any case I'll at least take a test ride, but the Pani stays.
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Old Dec 8th 2012, 04:40 PM   #25
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NR750,RC30,VRF800,rvf400,vfr1200,crosstourer,desmo sedici,rsv4/turno,horex roadster (V6),motus mst v4....etc..etc

never a technical hurdle....
price? a matter of economical of scale and branding...
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Old Dec 11th 2012, 12:06 PM   #26
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Did anyone notice on the web site the mirrors are missing, rerplaced with "alloy plugs"? The HP/Torque figures are identical. So pretty much 8K for the rods and a different color tank (and a handful of CF). No mention of the 500 rpms in the marketing.
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Old Dec 11th 2012, 09:49 PM   #27
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We live in exciting times…

In 2013, the 1199R will be the pinnacle of Ducati’s engineering prowess to compete against the BMW HP4. It is too bad that there is not a noticeable bump in performance similar to the 1098/1198R. However, the real race for dominance in superbikes will start in 2014 with Honda’s reintroduction of the V4. The threshold will be 200+HP with 3D traction control to allow us mere mortals to harness all that power. The result is I4s and V2s will unfortunately be left behind.

The lesson that has been learned is there is a real advantage for creating a halo vehicle and there is a select few that will pay almost any price to own one. The real question is; will Ducati produce a chassis-less V4 with 3D traction control in 2014 to compete in WSBK against Honda and Aprilia?
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Old Dec 11th 2012, 10:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tricolore View Post
The real question is; will Ducati produce a chassis-less V4 with 3D traction control in 2014 to compete in WSBK against Honda and Aprilia?
Hey you are scaring me. Can anyone chip in with their thoughts on whether there is any good possibility of Ducati releasing a V4/better model/another limited edition bike soon?

I don't want to spend shit loads on customising an R if Ducati decides to wipe the smile off my face in another few months.

Last edited by prasen; Dec 11th 2012 at 10:06 PM.
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Old Dec 11th 2012, 11:50 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Xbox View Post
No other superbike configuration I have ever owned comes close to the feeling I get from a v-twin.
This is yet another reason we pay 50% more (or, some of us, 100% more) to experience Ducati ownership.

So worth it.
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Old Dec 12th 2012, 04:38 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Tricolore View Post
We live in exciting times…

In 2013, the 1199R will be the pinnacle of Ducati’s engineering prowess to compete against the BMW HP4. It is too bad that there is not a noticeable bump in performance similar to the 1098/1198R. However, the real race for dominance in superbikes will start in 2014 with Honda’s reintroduction of the V4. The threshold will be 200+HP with 3D traction control to allow us mere mortals to harness all that power. The result is I4s and V2s will unfortunately be left behind.

The lesson that has been learned is there is a real advantage for creating a halo vehicle and there is a select few that will pay almost any price to own one. The real question is; will Ducati produce a chassis-less V4 with 3D traction control in 2014 to compete in WSBK against Honda and Aprilia?
But then you gotta buy the 3D helmet visor to actually use it fully, that's where the dealer gets ya
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