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Old May 29th 2014, 10:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by sifubs View Post
At 5 seconds there is a red flag and at 15 seconds a rider puts his hand up and slows down ( probably in response to the red flag). CR should have seen the flag, CR are there to maintain control but unfortunately many take this as an opportunity to play. Even though it's a racetrack it's not a race and if a CR sees someone riding erratic they should maintain a gap or pull the person in to show them the line.

Rider in front was slowing and CR was moving to the right. I've never been to N2 or NESBA and I wonder how detailed are the instructions for red clad protocol.

1. put up hand or leg out to signal you will be doing something abnormal
2. Move off racing line(as someone could have spilled oil on track)
3. Slow down to some agreed speed , no passing/racing

Accidents do happen, riders have brain fade or suffer from delayed reaction but this can be minimized by proper training and discipline or CR and riders alike.
Some organizations are run better than others and have reduced occurrences of this kind of avoidable I incident.
Didn't see that one . There was clearly a red flag waving at 34 seconds both riders should have been off the gas at that point .
I think it's fair to say everyone played their part .
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Old May 30th 2014, 02:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by wilkson View Post
Didn't see that one . There was clearly a red flag waving at 34 seconds both riders should have been off the gas at that point .
I think it's fair to say everyone played their part .
Criticism can be leveled at the lead rider for not making his/her intentions more clear. BUT, as was constantly drilled in to me by everyone from race school to race directors at riders meetings -

It is the responsibility of the overtaking rider to make the pass safely.

Period.
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Old May 30th 2014, 03:38 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Charliem90 View Post
Criticism can be leveled at the lead rider for not making his/her intentions more clear. BUT, as was constantly drilled in to me by everyone from race school to race directors at riders meetings -

It is the responsibility of the overtaking rider to make the pass safely.

Period.

Where Im from a red flag means to put your hand up slow down and leave the track and no passing .
So if your going to pull it apart no one should be doing any over taking everyone off the gas and everyone exiting the track . I think the rule is quite universal . Basic session is over .
Yellow flag still no over taking but stay on track until you see green . You guys have different rules ?


So if you want to be technical dude in orange top should be off the gas ready to exit track like the guy in front was trying to do without indicating he was doing ,so really everyone played a part .
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Last edited by wilkson; May 30th 2014 at 04:05 AM.
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Old May 30th 2014, 04:41 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by wilkson View Post
Where Im from a red flag means to put your hand up slow down and leave the track and no passing .
So if your going to pull it apart no one should be doing any over taking everyone off the gas and everyone exiting the track . I think the rule is quite universal . Basic session is over .
Yellow flag still no over taking but stay on track until you see green . You guys have different rules ?


So if you want to be technical dude in orange top should be off the gas ready to exit track like the guy in front was trying to do without indicating he was doing ,so really everyone played a part .
it's the same here, I can only think the CR rider did not see the red flag.
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Old May 30th 2014, 04:45 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by wilkson View Post
Where Im from a red flag means to put your hand up slow down and leave the track and no passing .
So if your going to pull it apart no one should be doing any over taking everyone off the gas and everyone exiting the track . I think the rule is quite universal . Basic session is over .
Yellow flag still no over taking but stay on track until you see green . You guys have different rules ?


So if you want to be technical dude in orange top should be off the gas ready to exit track like the guy in front was trying to do without indicating he was doing ,so really everyone played a part .
Thats the point which is what everyone has been harping on.. . actually at :05 seconds there is a biker down. Control Riders should automatically know that that usually means a red flag is coming out (and they usually might have a part in that. Not only did this CR see and ignore that, but actually said that when they were passing, that that rider was on her knees and getting up. Clearly on the video this rider was NOT on her knees and getting up. Then as other riders are signaling with their arms up, the CR keeps weaving through and ignoring what should be obvious conditions. . At the last turn, CR states that corner worker did not have a red flag up when he was going through the apex, but at the :31 second mark, you can clearly see the corner worker waving the red flag quite vigorously while the bikes are at the apex of the turn. .

As mentioned previously, there is a lot of cover your ass going on - including the entire organization banning any sort of discussion on the matter and not taking any responsibility or acknowledgement of their part in the matter. . .

Many are pointing to the first rider not putting a hand up. . lets be clear - that motion is for his own safety that he is doing something differently to signal riders behind. . . He /should/ have raised his hand /before/ he perhaps slowed down. But as others have also states, its the responsibility of the passing/overtaking rider to clear all obstacles in front and its his responsibility to pass regardless of the speeds of the bikes in front. . It's also the responsibility of the CR/instructor to maintain a safe riding situation out on track and to ignore a down rider that in high likelihood would signal a red to roll ambulances, and then ignore an actual waving red flag is in my book, almost inexcusable. .

I mean seriously - man up. Say I screwed up, something should have clicked in my head on the down rider as a CR. I must have missed the red flag that was waving and shouldn't have done what I was doing, instead of this - rider was getting up, there was no red flag and rider in front slowed down and all the other excuses. As an org, use it as a teaching exercise for your control riders/instructors and for your riders. Stop trying to act like it never happened.

Originally Posted by reganc View Post
it's the same here, I can only think the CR rider did not see the red flag.
No, control rider/instructor claimed he saw the corner worker but there was no red flag waving while he was through the apex of the turn. Looks pretty obvious to me, and corner worker wouldn't be able to just bring out the red flag to start waving in the 1/2 second right before its pretty obvious he's waving the red flag.

And yes wilkson, red flags in our country mean the same as in yours.
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Last edited by anthem; May 30th 2014 at 04:49 AM.
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Old May 30th 2014, 05:37 AM   #56
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A. did the control rider control the riding of the group or its participants in a safely manner ? (as one would define it part of the task of a control rider - that strongly depends on the track org., its philosophy, its people/participants and their attitude)

B. did the CR ride the shit out of his bike, maybe knowing that he was being filmed and took a higher risk to "show off"

Poll anyone?
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Old May 30th 2014, 07:16 AM   #57
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I did not see the red flag as well. Had I seen it, no matter. We dont slow for tge red, you get off the track. Fast and safe. We were also told to start pitting out at the kink on the back straight.
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Old May 30th 2014, 08:31 AM   #58
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The CYA going on is by lawyers orders I'm sure. CRs/coaches/instructors are looked at by lawyers are employees of the org. A mistake by them is grounds to file a lawsuit, regardless of the assumption of the inherent danger of the hobby. I know of a trackday org owner that doesnt let the coaches put names on their vests. He told me a coach was towing a rider, rider crashed and claimed coach was at fault for going to fast and sued. The owner was very upset because while he is prepared for possible lawsuits, they named the coach in the suit too.I'm sure the order came down to shut up.
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Old May 30th 2014, 09:31 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by MrKO View Post
I did not see the red flag as well. Had I seen it, no matter. We dont slow for tge red, you get off the track. Fast and safe.
Their rulebook says otherwise -

"Red Flag : Displayed at all stations. The session is over due to an unsafe situation. Slow down smoothly and bring your bike into the pits. "
http://www.n2td.org/wp-content/uploa...2014-FINAL.pdf
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Old May 30th 2014, 09:36 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by mrbrettbaker View Post
The CYA going on is by lawyers orders I'm sure. CRs/coaches/instructors are looked at by lawyers are employees of the org. A mistake by them is grounds to file a lawsuit, regardless of the assumption of the inherent danger of the hobby.
I suspect the CRs/instructors are independent contractors rather than employees of the organization.

I was an off-road M/C instructor for years at American Honda in Alpharetta, GA in their off-road program. Was not an employee of American Honda. Considered a certified contractor.
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