Performance Comparison: 1199S 15/41 gearing vs 1299S

Would anyone know how that 1199S with the 1199R sprocket configuration (15/41 vs original 15/39) compares to the new 1299/1299S in performance, i.e. horsepower and torque as a function of rpm or, put another way, what do he relative dyne curves look like?

Thanks in advance for any feedback or links/pointers to relevant sources.

People have barely gotten their 1299's. Give it a bit of time. Welcome to the forum.

Tkurfurst, not sure I understand the intent of the question completely. But FYI, see dyno comparison between 1199 and 1299 in link here:
Ducati 1299 Panigale Superbike Engine- Technical Analysis with Photos: Our European Editor dissects and analyzes the new Ducati 1299 Panigale engine.

From what we saw on the dyno after the break-in run, the 1299 will pull much harder with 15/39 than any 1199 ever did with 15/41...

Here is the chart from that link:



For US people, 144nm = 106lb/ft of torque.

Hell, the 1299 makes 87lb/ft of torque even as low as 4000RPM...which is more than the PEAK torque of most Liter bikes.

Obviously the 1299 has a much better mid-range than the 1199, but even still, at the very lowest point in the entire power curve, the 1199 still made 67lb/ft of torque which is not weak by any stretch of the imagination. That is why I find it almost comical when people complain about the 1199 being "gruntless" or "weak" in the mid-range.

(for comparison, the 1299 makes almost 80lb/ft of torque at that same lowest point...so yes, there is a big increase in mid-range power with the 1299).

Looks like the before & after chart of an 1199 w/ a full exhaust.

cosmok said:

Looks like the before & after chart of an 1199 w/ a full exhaust.

Click to expand...

Yes i'm sure the 1299 will outperform our modded 1199 bikes.. but I would expect that adding the 15/42 (my preference), full exhaust, MWR race filter, and Rapibike race or tuneboy, as most of us have done would get our bikes closer to the performance of the 1299....

Prince Albert said:

Yes i'm sure the 1299 will outperform our modded 1199 bikes.. but I would expect that adding the 15/42 (my preference), full exhaust, MWR race filter, and Rapibike race or tuneboy, as most of us have done would get our bikes closer to the performance of the 1299....

Click to expand...

Well said,
and lets not forget the rider factor. A new boy on his flash new 1299 may find it hard to keep up with an old bloke who has had a few years of practice on his "old" and "out of date" 1199.

The reason I posted my comment was because in talking to my contact within Ducati, it was stressed how much of the improved performance came from the new exhaust and the subsequent fueling/ignition changes made to the map. Adding 84cc's to an already radically oversquare engine does not naturally create more torque in the midrange. It took a completely new map to account for the new exhaust and extra displacement.

I think the limit of power in a street legal twin has been reached while still keeping it serviceable.

I think the new 1299 is awesome, but only for the new rider aids and suspension tweaks. The power is great, but can be had on an 1199 with an exhaust and tuning.

Still didn't get rid of the torque dip...

Mitchlguzin said:

Still didn't get rid of the torque dip...

Click to expand...

The actual dyno run, totally stock, right after break-in, compared on the same dyno with the 1199R and a bone-stock R1M (before de-restricting the ECU).

cosmok said:

I think the new 1299 is awesome, but only for the new rider aids and suspension tweaks. The power is great, but can be had on an 1199 with an exhaust and tuning.

Click to expand...

...and then what about when somebody on the 1299 also adds an exhaust and a custom dyno tune?

All things being equal, more displacement = more HP. Yes you can take less displacement and use parts/tuning to bump it up to equal power as the larger bike...BUT...when the larger bike also does the parts/tuning, you end up with the same net difference in power (typically speaking).

For example, my R6 made 15hp less than a GSX-R750 (both in stock form). But now that my R6 has a Superbike motor build, it makes 15hp more than a stock GSX-R750. But the 750 has more displacement. So if somebody takes a 750 and does the same build as my R6, then we would ultimately be back to where we were, and he would have a 15hp advantage again.

Chaotic said:

...and then what about when somebody on the 1299 also adds an exhaust and a custom dyno tune?

All things being equal, more displacement = more HP. Yes you can take less displacement and use parts/tuning to bump it up to equal power as the larger bike...BUT...when the larger bike also does the parts/tuning, you end up with the same net difference in power (typically speaking).

For example, my R6 made 15hp less than a GSX-R750 (both in stock form). But now that my R6 has a Superbike motor build, it makes 15hp more than a stock GSX-R750. But the 750 has more displacement. So if somebody takes a 750 and does the same build as my R6, then we would ultimately be back to where we were, and he would have a 15hp advantage again.

Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly. But you will be gaining mostly hp up top, not any more mid range torque, where most of the buzz lies with the new 1299. It is not a coincidence that with the new motor, peak hp numbers according to Ducati were the same as the 1199. It was mid range torque where the improvement was evident. The motor is so oversquare now that just about every ounce of torque has been squeezed out of it.(I make no claims with race only motor builds). You are right about displacement increasing hp, but going bigger in bore only is typically detrimental to the torque curve.

My point was to show that the same opportunity to address the torque issue on the 1199 can be had with an exhaust/intake and mapping. And as a side note, at $5k for the new DP Akra, plus another $1k for a customizable tuning module and tune, I don't see a lot of guys going this route. With the 1199, the used market is so flooded with Termi and Akra, you can have a full exhaust plus tuning for half the price.

If I was in the market for a new bike I would certainly choose the 1299. But since I am not, I will maximize my 1199 and share the info with everyone here to benefit from as well.

Just my tarnished .02

I understand and agree with your point. If I had an 1199, I wouldn't get rid of it to get a 1299. I would simply add an exhaust and dyno tune (and probably gearing) to make my 1199 the way I want it.

But from what I have read, I believe the full Akra gives the 1299 a big jump in mid-range torque. So there are still gains to be had there. And of course more mid-range gains can be had with tuning and things like velocity stacks.

They build the motors for reliability and longevity. I am sure there are still gains to be had, all the way through the rev range.

And really, we are kinda splitting hairs because we are talking about 190hp bikes. In other words, once you get to a certain point, it is just about bragging rights and dyno battling. In the real world, very few people can say they have 195hp but really need 205hp.

tcelano said:

The actual dyno run, totally stock, right after break-in, compared on the same dyno with the 1199R and a bone-stock R1M (before de-restricting the ECU).

Click to expand...

that is a pretty impressive graph for the 1299. It's about 30 - 40 hp up on the R1 for most of the usable rev range.. The torque figures are even more in favor of the 1299.

You can also see where Ducati have made big strides over the 1199R in the bottom end and midrange... Also interesting that the R's power hasn't really started to fall much, even at 12,000 rpm; makes me think that it could be good for another 500 rpm.

Those really are pretty stout numbers for the 1299, on a not broken in engine. I would expect to see at least another 5-7 hp once the miles reach 2,000+. My BMW S1000RR with full race Akrapovic, BMC race filter and a custom flash, made 184.6 hp at peak and had NOWHERE like the mid range that the 1299 has, not even in the same Universe.

I am looking forward to see what the 2015 Panigale R and the 1299 with full Akra make...

It really is amazing the power Ducati has extracted from 2 cylinders. We are all lucky to be Panigale owners!

1299 is better than 1199, and the 1399 will be better than the 1299...

That's life...but in the end, that doesn't take away from the previous. I still drool over 1198's, I still would love a 999, and get a boner for 998's...

1199's I think will be remembered as the last Ducati that scared the piss out of you. Kinda like a wild stalion, but you get some sick satisfaction if you can tame it and ride it to it's limit's and still not die.

I will never sell my 1199S. It was my dream bike. I just can't wait to pay it off in a year and wait for the killer phuckin deal on a 2016 1299S in 2017 or from sold old rich dude that in 2 yrs put 150miles on the odometer and is taking a $8000 kick to the balls like I did on my 1199S

tcelano said:

The actual dyno run, totally stock, right after break-in, compared on the same dyno with the 1199R and a bone-stock R1M (before de-restricting the ECU).

Click to expand...

Reportedly the US R1 is at least 10 hp less than the Euro spec model?

fzr100098 said:

Reportedly the US R1 is at least 10 hp less than the Euro spec model?

Click to expand...

Don't know anything about the Euro-spec bikes but there was 11 hp to be had from a re-flash that lifted the 92% throttle opening restriction, and some quick tuning, still with the stock exhaust.

fzr100098 said:

Reportedly the US R1 is at least 10 hp less than the Euro spec model?

Click to expand...

Yep. Same with the US version of the Kawasaki.

US bikes must meet noise/emissions standards. And those tests are performed at 50% of max HP/RPM. Instead of making an overall weaker bike, they simply program restrictions in the ECU (typically accomplished by restricting the butterflies) at/above certain RPM's. In doing so, they reduce the peak HP/RPM.

In other words, with the restrictions built in to lower the peak HP/RPM, now the noise and emissions tests are performed at 5500RPM, instead of at 6500RPM. And at 5500RPM, they can pass the tests.

Then, somebody can easily install a slip-on exhaust, reflash the ECU and boom...pickup 10-15hp.