Q4 Vs Q3+959 Panigale

1299rFE · Aug 31, 2018

Calling all track day guys.
Have any of you ran both tires?
I feel I am at the point where I can push the Q3 beyond its intended limit on the track.
I have my bike set on level 2 for traction control and the light is constantly on (because I am constantly on the throttle) last week I had my tires break traction twice and the bike pushed the rear tire out on me. First time was pretty abrupt

I threw my hand up and exited the track to check my pants.

A couple of motos later, another corner it did it again. It is predictable so the second time it didn't scare me. My point is I believe I am starting to ride beyond the typical track rider that uses the Q3 here and there (this was my 15th track day of the season)

I wanted to know if anyone has tried the Q4 out yet? What are your thoughts, can you give me a comparison to the Q3+?
I fully understand the technical differences, but what are your experiences?

MotoX183 · Aug 31, 2018

Why not just run some slicks. If you are pushing that hard, it is cheap insurance in the grand scheme of things.

Haven't ran the Q4s ever, as they are pretty new, but they sound interesting. IMO, can't beat the pirelli slicks for track duty.

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JohnSmith · Aug 31, 2018

MotoX183 said:
Why not just run some slicks. If you are pushing that hard, it is cheap insurance in the grand scheme of things.

Haven't ran the Q4s ever, as they are pretty new, but they sound interesting. IMO, can't beat the pirelli slicks for track duty.

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Which pirelli slicks do you run? How many track days do you get out of them?

MotoX183 · Aug 31, 2018

KarlKani said:
Which pirelli slicks do you run? How many track days do you get out of them?

Depends on the track temp. If it's really hot, I run the SC1's. They have a higher temperature threshold than the SC2 and do really well when the temps are way up there. Under normal temps, I'd run the SC2's most likely. 60-80F. Between 80-90F you could go either way, but above 90 I'd lean more to the SC1.

1299rFE · Sep 11, 2018

Just mounted some Q4's on my 959, heading to Thompson Raceway for a two day session, Monday and Wednesday next week !

mtb · Sep 11, 2018

I run SC1 front and SC2 rear on my 899. I change the pressures according to outside temps. That combo gets me through a whole season of temps from 60-90 on 1 front and 2 rears at mid-Advanced group trackday pace.

Domino · Sep 11, 2018

I would run full race DOT tires instead of the Q3 or Q4. Dunlop’s GPA is the same construction and compound according to Steve Brubaker (Dunlop’s USA Distributor). Then you still have a tire you can use on the street and is very similar in performance to the slicks. Michelin Evo Dot is good as well and I am sure the Bridgestone and Pirelli DOT are also. Just choose your preferred flavor. As for the TC, make sure that you calibrate for the tire circumference (I forgot this last track day and noticed on my video that the electronics were kicking in 4-5 times a lap. I didn’t notice except one where it really interceded hard.

1299rFE · Sep 11, 2018

Domino said:
I would run full race DOT tires instead of the Q3 or Q4. Dunlop's GPA is the same construction and compound according to Steve Brubaker (Dunlop's USA Distributor). Then you still have a tire you can use on the street and is very similar in performance to the slicks. Michelin Evo Dot is good as well and I am sure the Bridgestone and Pirelli DOT are also. Just choose your preferred flavor. As for the TC, make sure that you calibrate for the tire circumference (I forgot this last track day and noticed on my video that the electronics were kicking in 4-5 times a lap. I didn't notice except one where it really interceded hard.

I figured to give these tires a go, if I can't get the grip I am looking for then yes, the DOT is where I will go next. I am primarily a track rider now. I rarely run the bike on the street. Next season I am going race plastics and wiring the bike to prep it for track duty.
What do you mean calibrate for tire circumference? Is there a program on my bike I am not aware of ?

jarelj · Sep 11, 2018

+1 for going to a DOT race tire for your intended use. I'm not intending to poo-poo Dunlop with any malice, we sell Dunlop street tires in our store and they're great tires for the street. But as a track day provider, I can unequivocally say that I've seen more "Intermediate level" track day crashes on Dunlop Q3's than any other tire, by a huge margin. Part of that is because a lot of people seem to show up at the track with them I'm sure. But quite often when we have a rider who's getting faster and starting to push into what I would consider a high Intermediate or early Advanced pace on Q3's it ends in the weeds. I have not personally ran them myself so can't comment on feel, but just anecdotally I'd say they don't provide good feedback when they're about to let go. The motorcycle media loves those tires and they get great reviews by the testers, etc. But anytime someone asks me for tire advice for a track-only or nearly track-only bike, I'm going to say DOT is absolutely the way to go. The new Bridgestone R11 is awesome, that's what I'm running myself this year and I love them for both grip and life. At a track day pace without a lot of load on them they still have good grip, and at race pace they're darn near as good as the Pirelli Supercorsa SC's. Another option to consider is the Pirelli Supercorsa SP, although not a true DOT race tire it does have the best grip of any "street" tire hands-down, at the expense of somewhat lower life. The Michelin Evo tires seem really good from what I've seen also.

One thing to consider that is not always intuitive is that a tire that has "good" but not "great" grip and feel at the limits of traction will actually be safer in the hands of an expert rider than an intermediate-level rider. Put a Moto America pro on a set of Q3's and he can make the tire squirm and slide and keep the bike upright because he has really precise feel for what the bike is doing. An intermediate level rider does not, and is much more likely to bin it. Put that rider on a good DOT race tire that provides a lot of feedback and feel for the limits of traction and they're much more likely to save it in situations that otherwise would have been a biff. The common notion is "I'm not going fast enough to need the grip of a race tire, so I'll just get faster on these tires until I need the grip and then I'll go to a DOT". IMO that is the opposite way to think about it, you need the grip even more while you're learning to go fast. If I can write tire prescriptions as Dr. Race Tire, I always put a new rider on a forgiving DOT race tire like the R11. I won't put them on slicks at that point normally since the DOT's are more forgiving of lighter loads and temps.

YMMV

JohnSmith · Sep 11, 2018

jarelj said:
+1 for going to a DOT race tire for your intended use. I'm not intending to poo-poo Dunlop with any malice, we sell Dunlop street tires in our store and they're great tires for the street. But as a track day provider, I can unequivocally say that I've seen more "Intermediate level" track day crashes on Dunlop Q3's than any other tire, by a huge margin. Part of that is because a lot of people seem to show up at the track with them I'm sure. But quite often when we have a rider who's getting faster and starting to push into what I would consider a high Intermediate or early Advanced pace on Q3's it ends in the weeds. I have not personally ran them myself so can't comment on feel, but just anecdotally I'd say they don't provide good feedback when they're about to let go. The motorcycle media loves those tires and they get great reviews by the testers, etc. But anytime someone asks me for tire advice for a track-only or nearly track-only bike, I'm going to say DOT is absolutely the way to go. The new Bridgestone R11 is awesome, that's what I'm running myself this year and I love them for both grip and life. At a track day pace without a lot of load on them they still have good grip, and at race pace they're darn near as good as the Pirelli Supercorsa SC's. Another option to consider is the Pirelli Supercorsa SP, although not a true DOT race tire it does have the best grip of any "street" tire hands-down, at the expense of somewhat lower life. The Michelin Evo tires seem really good from what I've seen also.

One thing to consider that is not always intuitive is that a tire that has "good" but not "great" grip and feel at the limits of traction will actually be safer in the hands of an expert rider than an intermediate-level rider. Put a Moto America pro on a set of Q3's and he can make the tire squirm and slide and keep the bike upright because he has really precise feel for what the bike is doing. An intermediate level rider does not, and is much more likely to bin it. Put that rider on a good DOT race tire that provides a lot of feedback and feel for the limits of traction and they're much more likely to save it in situations that otherwise would have been a biff. The common notion is "I'm not going fast enough to need the grip of a race tire, so I'll just get faster on these tires until I need the grip and then I'll go to a DOT". IMO that is the opposite way to think about it, you need the grip even more while you're learning to go fast. If I can write tire prescriptions as Dr. Race Tire, I always put a new rider on a forgiving DOT race tire like the R11. I won't put them on slicks at that point normally since the DOT's are more forgiving of lighter loads and temps.

YMMV

jarel great info per usual, hey this op posted another thread about the next gen of the 959, would love to hear your thoughts on it. I tried to @ you in the thread but I dont think that works in this forum.

1299rFE · Sep 11, 2018

jarelj said:
+1 for going to a DOT race tire for your intended use. I'm not intending to poo-poo Dunlop with any malice, we sell Dunlop street tires in our store and they're great tires for the street. But as a track day provider, I can unequivocally say that I've seen more "Intermediate level" track day crashes on Dunlop Q3's than any other tire, by a huge margin. Part of that is because a lot of people seem to show up at the track with them I'm sure. But quite often when we have a rider who's getting faster and starting to push into what I would consider a high Intermediate or early Advanced pace on Q3's it ends in the weeds. I have not personally ran them myself so can't comment on feel, but just anecdotally I'd say they don't provide good feedback when they're about to let go. The motorcycle media loves those tires and they get great reviews by the testers, etc. But anytime someone asks me for tire advice for a track-only or nearly track-only bike, I'm going to say DOT is absolutely the way to go. The new Bridgestone R11 is awesome, that's what I'm running myself this year and I love them for both grip and life. At a track day pace without a lot of load on them they still have good grip, and at race pace they're darn near as good as the Pirelli Supercorsa SC's. Another option to consider is the Pirelli Supercorsa SP, although not a true DOT race tire it does have the best grip of any "street" tire hands-down, at the expense of somewhat lower life. The Michelin Evo tires seem really good from what I've seen also.

One thing to consider that is not always intuitive is that a tire that has "good" but not "great" grip and feel at the limits of traction will actually be safer in the hands of an expert rider than an intermediate-level rider. Put a Moto America pro on a set of Q3's and he can make the tire squirm and slide and keep the bike upright because he has really precise feel for what the bike is doing. An intermediate level rider does not, and is much more likely to bin it. Put that rider on a good DOT race tire that provides a lot of feedback and feel for the limits of traction and they're much more likely to save it in situations that otherwise would have been a biff. The common notion is "I'm not going fast enough to need the grip of a race tire, so I'll just get faster on these tires until I need the grip and then I'll go to a DOT". IMO that is the opposite way to think about it, you need the grip even more while you're learning to go fast. If I can write tire prescriptions as Dr. Race Tire, I always put a new rider on a forgiving DOT race tire like the R11. I won't put them on slicks at that point normally since the DOT's are more forgiving of lighter loads and temps.

YMMV

You brought a great theory into my thoughts about a tire. I would say I am riding at a high intermediate pace now. I have to agree the Q3 did not give me very good feedback. In my original post I felt like the bike snapped out of place. After doing some research I found many have found the same thing. I have also read that a bike with race rubber will feel more predictable when spinning on a race spec tire or track focused tire.
I have also heard really good things about the Q4's and the tire gives great feedback. I have also had heard many say that the Q4's are very much like the SP's. Thank you for your feedback and advice.

Domino · Sep 11, 2018

1299rFE said:
I figured to give these tires a go, if I can't get the grip I am looking for then yes, the DOT is where I will go next. I am primarily a track rider now. I rarely run the bike on the street. Next season I am going race plastics and wiring the bike to prep it for track duty.
What do you mean calibrate for tire circumference? Is there a program on my bike I am not aware of ?

Sorry, on your bike there isn't a setting. I skimmed over it and thought of my bike.

Grip is a function of a lot of things including tires, pressures, temperatures, suspension and riding style. You could probably get more out of the street/track tire but for similar price just go with a DOT tire in your favorite flavor.

ChrisE · Sep 11, 2018

A couple of years ago, I did the Ducati Revs America at COTA. Jason Pridmores Start school was the host. The school brought a bunch of 1199's and 859's to the track, all equipped with Q3's. We also had a couple od Dunlop Tire Tech's at the event who gave us a presentation on the Q3's. They stated that the side grip compound was the same as used on the GPA's.

Up until this I had pretty much run Race DOT's or slicks on my track bikes for the past 12+ years, mostly Pirelli's SC1 and SC2 and Dunlops GPA's.

After watching the instructors and guest instructors (Josh Hayes), circulate COTA on the Q3's, I was well impressed.

I run A group and ran the Q3's for the times time at a track day last year. I was very impressed. I had no moments, something I could get on a regulat=r basic on the OEM SP's. I didn't use tire warmers and sacrificed a little fun on the first lap.

I've run the Q3's on the street on my 1299 and my Tuono and again had no scary moments.

I'm still on the fence between Q3 and race DOT's for track use

This was the 5th session for me at this track, running the Q3's, so I was running in the Intermediate group with my buddies (observing the passing rules)..
[youtube]omAAkcj67NI[/youtube]

1299rFE · Sep 26, 2018

For what it is worth,

These tires offer magnificent grip for about 1.5 days. After that the traction light starts to come on a lot. I went to a new track to me, so I was not pushing the tires as hard as I would on a track I had been familiar with. I consider myself a top of the pack A rider for track day events. That does not mean anything when it comes to mixing into the race groups btw. There I am a slower to mid pack amateur rider.

2nd day we had wet track conditions for the first two sessions. I did get the rear tire to push out a bit, then I slowed my corner entry after. The tire does not have wet grooves on the last two inches of the tire and is almost like a slick. For rain conditions I would go with a Q3 or a rain tire.

If you can get a good deal on these tires I would run them consistently

Q4 Vs Q3+959 Panigale

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