Riding 1299 slow on track

Hi, I currently ride a 959 on road and track.

Since a fantastic DRE (Ducati Riding Experience) day last year on Mugello, I have developed enough skill to really appreciate track riding and learning to ride the slow(er) 959 fast.

Therefore I decided to stick with the 959 for a few more years and develop my track skills and then make the transition to a 1299 - or perhaps a Ducati V4 by that time.

This plan has been 'disrupted', as they say, as I now have the chance to purchase a 1299S at a good price.

My question is:

Should i stick with my previous decision to ride the 959 for the next few years, realizing that this will be more costly for me since I will not be able to take full advantage of the opportunity I have now, or

Should I get the 1299S now and perhaps not open it up fully or ride it in wet mode up for the next year when on track and when riding on longer trips (1,000 km+), I have the HP for the autobahn.

What would you suggest from your experience riding the 1299 on track?

Thanks
Rex

Stick with the 959. There will be other 1299s available when you're ready and as you said maybe even a v4.

Stick with the 959.

To be honest, you'd be better off on something even smaller like a 600. But since you already have the 959, stick with it. Going to a Liter bike now will drastically affect your learning curve.

Trust me, I went through the same thing (sorta). I was t-boned in my very first track day ever, destroying my 600. Rather than getting another one, I just track prepped my R1.

It actually slowed my progress because I found myself using the power of the R1 to make passes. I found myself thinking "there is no way that guy should be passing me on that bike". So I parked the R1, got another 600, took some schools, etc. and started racing. Then when I got back on a 1000, it was a different story.

above recommendation is the correct one.

However, it wont be bad if you get 1299S either. You'll be fine. Unless you are crazy and trying to beat the world record on a track.

Or you could get the 1299, put it in wet mode, turn down or off all the electronics and its power is basically a 600. Once you're comfortable, unleash the full power. It's almost like having 2 bikes in one.

You have to be able to speed your brain up on a faster bike, to stay ahead of it. You can't learn that on a slower bike. Mind as well go for the 1299 and get to the next level.
You will find going back to a slower bike, you will be faster than you were before. You will have all the time in the world on that 959.

while i agree with the above people saying keep the 959 there are other factors i would like to know before i say that with 100% conviction for me anyway.

1 what is the great deal on the 1299? is it used or new?
I ask these 2 things because there are always "deals around" for a used bike or a new bike depending on time of year.

2 most important what would you do with the 959? are you keeping it or trade/sell
i ask this because what may seem a great deal on a 1299 may be gone with a trade of the 959.

there are more questions i would have but these i feel most important.

You should go with your gut feeling the world will not end if you make the wrong decision, your young so your gut feeling will be the 1299 . I'm old so would suggest sticking with the smaller Pani it's a hell of a top shelf track bike.

Pushing something to it's limit like the smaller Pani is a beautiful thing pushing the 1299 to it's limit welllllll good luck with that.

Go with whatever you want. Frankly I was scared to bump up to 1199 from my 848, but after a few days on it I found it to be a lot more user friendly and a lot easier to ride knowing that you have that power when you need it...

Just to throw a big imperial sized adjustable spanner in the works.

My 1299s is my 4th bike. ( in order- gsxr 600 srad, rsv1000r, 675se and the pani) Been riding for 15 years. Done numerous track days, never raced. Up until june15 I had plateaud. I had a barrier of 2:47 around snetterton on the trumpet. No matter how hard I tried or relaxed I could never get faster. Enter the pani. She taught me just how hard and early I could get on the gas, more corner speed. This was just on the road with out riding like a complete cockwomble. I jumped back on the trumpet on the road and was a different rider. This year (all trumpet based) After 3 track days at cadwell park where I felt at one with the bike for the first time. I went back to snetterton on an open pit lane day. With in 6 laps I was under 2:47. Within 12 laps both my knees were down for the first time at thetwo hairpins. The rest of the day knees were down at will (how was it such a barrier in the first place) and I was down to a 2:20 lap. Utterly stoked.
Personally I put this down to confidence gained from an utter monster of bike. I can't wait to track the pani at Silverstone and snetterton this year.

Suppose I'm slightly odd in the way I have improved! Maybe it was the electronic safety net that gave me more confidence that I could transfer that to the trumpet. Who knows.

Buy a 1299 if the price is right it's great!

chaotic said:

stick with the 959.

To be honest, you'd be better off on something even smaller like a 600. But since you already have the 959, stick with it. Going to a liter bike now will drastically affect your learning curve.

Trust me, i went through the same thing (sorta). I was t-boned in my very first track day ever, destroying my 600. Rather than getting another one, i just track prepped my r1.

It actually slowed my progress because i found myself using the power of the r1 to make passes. I found myself thinking "there is no way that guy should be passing me on that bike". So i parked the r1, got another 600, took some schools, etc. And started racing. Then when i got back on a 1000, it was a different story.

Click to expand...

this 100%

centeroff said:

You have to be able to speed your brain up on a faster bike, to stay ahead of it. You cant learn that on a slower bike.

Click to expand...

Having been a track instructor for 8 years, and a member of the Speed Academy Staff through its entire existence, I couldn't disagree more.

The problem isn't getting the brain up to speed, the problem is having the proper fundamentals, techniques, skills, experience, etc to handle how fast everything happens on a Liter bike.

Minor errors or deficiencies in throttle control, brake application, body positioning, track management, vision, etc are exposed exponentially on a Liter bike. Most crashes happen because people find themselves in situations (or things happening at speeds) that they simply do not have the fundamentals and/or experience to handle.

A 300 will help you learn skills and become a much better rider if you put in your time on the slow bike. Anyone can twist a grip in a straight line. When I was a kid racing motocross my father made me ride a clapped out motor, rest of the bike was a+. I hated having a slow bike but I learned about carrying momentum and corner speed, it honed my skills and made me much better rider. I'd love to get the baby Ktm and park my 1199.

Whatever you choose, stop by and say hi at Knutstorp in the spring.
Black T5 transporter and 990 on my number boards.

Learn your craft on a low power bike. I had a 748R as my first serious track bike. I used to get seriously frustrated on track days catching up litre bikes in twisty sections of track by paying attention to lines, corner speed and throttle control, but then having the buggers piss off into the distance on the straights. But then I changed it for a 1098S...

What always strikes me the most in these stories is that it's always going back to the smaller bike that makes them go faster.
You could argue that it's not the bigger bike that makes them go faster, but the other side apparently is that they learnt something on the bigger bike which the smaller bike couldn't give them.

Just food for thought.

Depends on the track you're at. If you're at Jyllandsringen a lot, you're going to be faster on the 959. If you're going to Osterreichring, you're going to be faster on the 1299. But my guess is you'll find the 959 rewarding and the 1299 a tiring beast. On tight tracks you'll most likely be mentally and physically exhausted--and might even have a little PTSD at the end of the day.

I think the problem is that once we get bit by the track bug we want to be faster, smoother, more competent. And we want to accelerate the process as quickly as possible. The most obvious solution is to get a better bike that we think's going to remove some of those barriers. But 9 times of 10, we're disappointed and realize that, after all, the problem is us and not the bike.

My .02: invest the $$ in a lightweight set of wheels and more track time.

On the street, however it's a different story completely. Nothing you do to the 959 will replace the rush of hp you get from the bigger bike. Of course, Denmark isn't exactly lenient when it comes to exceeding the speed limit and the temptation might just prove too much for your own good.

As for a good deal....don't worry, there are always good deals and the longer you wait the more $$$ you'll save.

The reason going back to a smaller bike makes people faster overall is because they develop skills like corner speed, maximizing throttle early, keep the bike at peak RPMs, setting up passes on the brakes or in the corners, etc.

There is a HUGE difference between a fast bike and a fast rider.

Sure, anybody can get a fast bike, take it to track days where the groups are full of all kinds of different bikes and blast by everyone on the straights. That person will see their lap times improve simply because they are getting from point A to point B faster in most places.

However, once you reach the point of racing, especially as an Expert, that doesn't work. When racing Liter bikes, there are no straightaway hero's because everyone's bike is fast since everyone is on Liter bikes.

The guys racing Liter bikes at the pointy end are braking late and hard, carrying tons of entry speed, getting on the gas early and hard, maximizing drive on exit etc just like the guys on 600s. If you don't develop those types of skills early (on smaller bikes), you will find yourself embarrassed once you find yourself gridded up in a situation where EVERYONE is on a Liter bike.

You will quickly realize all the "little bike skills" are being utilized, everything is just happening much faster, which means proper fundamentals are much more important and the consequences of mistakes are much higher.

Chaotic said:

Having been a track instructor for 8 years, and a member of the Speed Academy Staff through its entire existence, I couldn't disagree more.

The problem isn't getting the brain up to speed, the problem is having the proper fundamentals, techniques, skills, experience, etc to handle how fast everything happens on a Liter bike.

Minor errors or deficiencies in throttle control, brake application, body positioning, track management, vision, etc are exposed exponentially on a Liter bike. Most crashes happen because people find themselves in situations (or things happening at speeds) that they simply do not have the fundamentals and/or experience to handle.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with Chaotic.
It is the basic fundamentals and developing your skill levels and learning to be smooth like he described above that is the most important thing.

Because of my height and weight (6'5;; 225 lbs) I started riding on a CBR 1000RR ( basically because I looked like a monkey humping a football riding a 600 LOL) It had NO electronics like traction control etc.. I had to learn to be smooth and use the throttle and brakes correctly...
I just gradually ramped up the speed as my skill levels increased... I do agree with Chaos that the smaller displacement bike (959) will be easier to learn on and will not get you in trouble nearly as fast but for me the CBR1000 was the way I learned...

I have always ridden the 1299S in RACE mode and have never changed it. Street or track. ( I just like the instant throttle response and got used to it.)

This is just a personal decision because I don't want too many variables to have to get used to all over again by switching to a different throttle response etc.....
* I do change the Wheelie control and T/C settings on the track to allow me to take advantage of the different situations..
The bikes electronics are great but they are just a tool to help you get the most of certain conditions or track and not designed to make you a superman on the track or street. Personally, I think the "Rain mode" s a waste of time (at least for me) If you just ride in the rain mode then you should have just bought a sower bike to begin with and are just a poser..LOL

The best Traction Control and throttle control electronics on a bike is the neurons firing in your brain cells and your right hand...!

But then again,, There is an old saying It is more fun to ride a slower bike fast than a fast bike slow...

Both will go fast enough.. Both will get you in trouble fast if you don't have the basic skills to handle the cornering speeds you will encounter on a track..


After playing golf for many years (and spending thousands of dollars on various clubs) trying to get the "best club for my swing" I finally realized that if I had spent even 20% of that money on proper lessons I would have been a much better golfer! Get proper instruction from someone like Chaos and ride faster and safer..
I would much rather ride in the Expert level on the track because of the skill level my fellow riders have.. Even though we are goin much faster than the intermediate group, it is generally much safer because they are more skilled and hold their lines and generally don't do stupid things in front of you like they do in the intermediate or beginner levels etc.. Much less variables to contend with.

No matter what bike you ride Get some lessons and hone your skills.. There is no reason to be afraid of any motorcycle as long as you have the skills to handle it and the sense to respect it and not act like a fool...

As crappy as my 1299S runs (at street speeds) it runs VERY strong on a track where you can open it up...I added a Ducati Akropovic titanium exhaust with the Up Map and a Rapid Bike Racing unit and it is VERY STRONG when you get on it and let it do its thing.. Unfortunately It just does not like to run smooth at 45 mph etc around town ... It would not be a good beginners bike for the track.
However if a guy got on it and gradually got used to it and ramped it up gradually it would be as safe as any 959 or other smaller displacement bike. In my opinion , It is not the bike that matters nearly as much as the riders skill level...

I have seen people seriously hurt riding a 125cc scooter while doing stupid things. * Some people simply should not get on two wheels or run with scissors LOL

Like Chaos says. Learn the proper skills and be safer and you will be able to get on almost any bike and enjoy it.

Speedy

As others have said, stay with the 959. Attend a credible track school to develop your skills and build your confidence. You'll likely be a better rider and have more fun on the smaller displacement.