Track Skins discussion

ccr said:

How am I biased if I do not sell aftermarket bodywork? Do you know what I tell customers who come into my shop for "track" paint jobs? i say outright....right to their faces "I'm gonna lose a job here....I tell them to go to home depot and buy a case of krylon".
Some customers want to look good at the track. They buy their bodywork elsewhere and want a STREET quality paint job on their parts. So this is what I give them. If they track my high quality Street Paint then it's on them. ALL of them are quite aware of the fact that they could go to 15 other paint shops in the north east and get a track quality paint job for 1/3rd or 1/4 of what I charge so your assertion that I am biased is beyond ridiculous and not factual.

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Copied over from another thread on discussion of track skins.

Sean - if you're asking that question on bias - then yeah you can argue otherwise. However A) you don't sell track skins - great. But you do know who does and I'm sure you have opinions and referrals. B). You directly benefit that there are track skins available for you to paint.

While I'm sure you paint factory OEM tanks/skins - I'm sure a significant portion of your track designs and jobs are on aftermarket skins. So, being in the industry and arguing that you have no stake in this is a bit ridiculous as well, right ?

Regardless - bias or not. Let's see your factual numbers on track skins making sense for the occasional track day rider and proof. I'm skeptical so lets see them.

Again, I reiterate I sell paint jobs. I do not profit from referrals from the aftermarket track bodies sold. You wrote "I'm sure a significant portion of your track designs and jobs are on aftermarket skins". You are 100% wrong. Incorrect. Not even close to the reality of the matter. If you look at my web site and have been around a while you would know the STREET and SHOW quality paint jobs I complete that actually wind up on the track are an extremely small percentage, like single digits of the 4000 motorcycles I've painted in the last 25 years. I DO feature these very few jobs that wind up on the track prominently on my web pages because I am a Ducati owner. So my web pages themselves might be biased towards all Ducati's (maybe because my web guy races Ducati's), but since I do not profit one iota from what TYPE of bodywork comes into my facility your assertion that I am biased towards painting aftermarket bodywork is not factually correct. Apparently you are unable to see the distinction here. When my customers inquire as to whether it is worth it to buy aftermarket bodywork and have me paint it, or whether to have me paint their stock pieces, I take about 20 minutes or so and explain all the pro's and cons of buying aftermarket bodywork. Inevitably, 99% of them "see the light" when I get into the sordid details of REPAIRING various types of body work, which is something which you are not taking into consideration at all!
Your view and your opinion work for you but I will say you hold a very short term myopic view on the over all picture and as I will show you within a few days, you will see how there can be a significant savings over a period of three years or more, which seems to be the inside window of time my customers track one particular bike, by running track body work.

...now I'll get to put this into practice. Just got an email 4 minutes ago and one of the recent Pans I painted just went down. Lowsided. I'll be out of town tomorrow on business but I will revisit this thread Tues if I have time.

Stay tuned and I will PROVE my point that is is well worth it to use track bodywork. This is where I will SAVE this customer money.

ccr said:

Your view and your opinion work for you but I will say you hold a very short term myopic view on the over all picture and as I will show you within a few days, you will see how there can be a significant savings over a period of three years or more, which seems to be the inside window of time my customers track one particular bike, by running track body work.

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My only assertion is that you financially benefit from the fact that aftermarket skins are available. I don't. Joe blow doesn't. you /are/ in the industry. You don't paint everyone's aftermarket skins for free. you receive compensation for painting someone's aftermarket skin. Just because you persuade others to go elsewhere or that there is competition for your work doesn't change that. Doesn't matter if its 1% of your work or 10% or 100% - you're paid to paint aftermarket skins.

Bias or not, that was my only assertion. So throw that out and assume otherwise as it doesn't matter. We'll let facts and your proof speak. . .

Honestly, sounds like you're hedging your ability to proof with qualifications of 3 years of ownership, etc.

And I would counter that my view isn't myopic - its actually very macro and a question more on whether the numbers make sense for each person. You're taking the myopic view that it makes sense for all riders.

I'll throw this out there from my end. I have purchased aftermarket skins. I have ridden bikes with aftermarket skins and rode bikes without. So I've been on both sides. My argument is that one should /think about it/ before just saying that a bike doesn't belong on the track with stock skins. if that is the case, then EVERY track day rider out with TPM, NESBA, Tony's, Kelgwins, STT, etc) should be on the track with track skins and not stock skins. Does that happen ? Not even close - usually the hardcore guys and some others have track skins. What about the rest ? Not even close - plenty of people riding their R1's without track skins, plenty of Panigale or Duc riders, plenty of CBR riders, etc, etc. . .

Remember - my point is that it doesn't always make sense. Not that it makes no sense. Depends on how many times you ride the track, how risk averse you are, etc. It's like insurnace - you might go down, you might not. Thats the argument. I said - it doesn't ALWAYS make sense. someone else said stock skins don't belong and you need track skins to be on the track. Your counter and proof has to be that it /ALWAYS/ make sense to EVERY rider who rides on the track. This means the guy who takes his bike out to track ONE day as well as the regular track day rider/racer (which skins do make all the sense).

Good luck and lets see the proof.

ccr said:

...now I'll get to put this into practice. Just got an email 4 minutes ago and one of the recent Pans I painted just went down. Lowsided. I'll be out of town tomorrow on business but I will revisit this thread Tues if I have time.

Stay tuned and I will PROVE my point that is is well worth it to use track bodywork. This is where I will SAVE this customer money.

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One rider going down doesn't make the case. There are more riders that stay up than go down on any given track day. Hell, my last track day had a girl go down, but 80 other riders didn't. In white group alone - there were what 40 riders. Some will never be back. Make your case - how is it worthwhile for a track day rider to spend 1k+ to get track skins for one track day and they never go back ?

So I make my case - plenty of riders that go to the track once or twice and didn't go down. Didn't buy track skins, suffered no damage. Was it worthwhile for them to buy skins ? No. Just made my case. I can make the case easily for regular riders, racers, etc. Hell - I agree with those. I just don't agree that ALL track day riders should have track skins made all the time. So, Now make yours - remember PROOF that it makes sense for ALL RIDERS ALL THE TIME.

There are a couple of guys here going to a track day coming up. I don't see them all going out getting track skins because they think they MUST get a skin because the stock skins aren't designed to go on track.

...back tracking already. That didn't take long.

ccr said:

...back tracking already. That didn't take long.

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Haven't back tracked one bit on this. I'm just giving you the bar you have to hit from the original thread. Your buddy said stock skins don't belong on a track - PERIOD. I said depends on the rider. For some it makes sense, for others it does not. Read the thread.

Now, you come in and say you can prove what your buddy said. We all know it makes sense for heavy duty track riders, racers, etc (again, conceded in original thread). You have to make the case that it makes sense for ALL riders, that includes "occasional" riders.

So who's back tracking ??? looks like you're back tracking all over the place. I haven't stepped back one bit on my original assertion. I guess you're jumping into your buddy's discussion and throwing barbs out left and right. Fair enough - Stop talking trash and beating around the bush - and let's see the proof. That you can prove this with facts because I don't think you can do it. I think you're going to use a myopic (your term) example of one or a group of riders that ride on track heavily and the percentages that go down and how much it might save them in $$$. You can't make the case that all riders should use track skins, but I sure would love to hear it.

Sounds more like your chickening out or failed to read through the original arguments. Perhaps the bar is just too high for you to make your case ?

could you resolve that opinion exchange in an email or via pm?

this forum benefits more from facts, like: cheap skinz here, better ones there, factory body parts on ebay, paintjob well done here, cheaper there but...

i truly understand that you both are passionate about your opinions, and without throwing my 2 cents in, either one of you has valid points.

BUT, please don't take it so serious.

thanks,

Phil said:

could you resolve that opinion exchange in an email or via pm.

BUT, please don't take it so serious.

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+1

Read the first two post thinking that this thread would have some useful discussion on which skins and what materials are better.

Going to try and steer this into a better direction.

Currently mounting up a set of Catalyst body work for a race this weekend. They were definitly more expensive than other options but the customer service was excellent. I contacted a few of their retailers trying to get bodywork on short notice and they all gave me 2-3 weeks and weren't really willing to work with me. I then contacted CRC directly and they finished one within a few business days and since they were in San Diego shipping was next day.

I'll edit the post to include fitment reviews after its all mounted.

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Overall the catalyst stuff fits really good. I like the way they did the tail compared to the sharkskins (mounts straight to subfram, no intermediate peices needed. The belly pan required some work but they said it was designed to work with both the termis and stock exhaust but favoring the termis (I have stock).

I have the Cruciata fairings still new in the box, i like the quality!

Can some of you fella's post prices for your track fairings too? Thanks!