Tracking the 1199 - NEED TO KNOW...

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Gatti,

the engines blowing, is one from a friend of mine who blew just before mounting Radillon at 220kph , so he'll not forget it lightly. the other one just happened yesteday at Zolder. both conrods.

the maintenance shedule comes from our Ducati Dealer, who's got it from Ducati Europe.

Both my friends did what Wilkson did : they upgraded to the R as that is the advice they got : stock conrods do not carry the high pace tracking circumstances. That is why Ducati give no warranty on remapped engines and SBK pipes that require non Ducati maps. Internally Ducati Corse is considered a different company that does things to ducatis Ducati itself does not approve..


Where do they break? Ducati mapping makes sure the power goes down 400-600 revs before the limiter. This so you would shift to a higher gear sooner than the engine can go. Rapidbike allows you first to get 6-8 bhp more at the top and then to coninue to carry all that power right up to the limiter. This allows for going longer in a gear and depending on the track , can avoid an upshift and a downshift. This however puts tremendous stress on the engine as it is right at the very top of the rev range. So not only does the engine rv higher , it also does so for perhaps 3 X as long. So the stress at the top increases like 6 fold in on couple of bends.. and this then all day long...

Ask yourself a question ; if a raced Superstock R engine requires a 5000 euro complete rebuild every 1500 km, how could basically the same engine with barely 8 bhp less not need more maintenance when run intensely? And spirited tracking is much closer to racing than going for a Starbucks... the Alstare engines need rebuilds every 600 km... Aprilia has new engines for every race weekend.

Do not worry : BMW blows engines to. But you can buy a beemer for racing purposes without any warranty at quit a discount.

it is simple .. the 200 bhp threshhold has brought superbikes to the very limit of what can be done. And the slightes fiddling takes them into unknown territory. 200bhp in 2007 was factory bike only... now they 're in the showroom... there are limits to what can be done and we're pritty close to that limit. he who denies that does so at his own peril.. and let's be honest : tracking IS expensive ( logisitcs, fees, even gas, tires,... ) so what diff will a bit of oil make ? got to be outright unclever to take that risk..
 
kope999R said:
Gatti,

the engines blowing, is one from a friend of mine who blew just before mounting Radillon at 220kph , so he'll not forget it lightly. the other one just happened yesteday at Zolder. both conrods.

the maintenance shedule comes from our Ducati Dealer, who's got it from Ducati Europe.

Both my friends did what Wilkson did : they upgraded to the R as that is the advice they got : stock conrods do not carry the high pace tracking circumstances. That is why Ducati give no warranty on remapped engines and SBK pipes that require non Ducati maps. Internally Ducati Corse is considered a different company that does things to ducatis Ducati itself does not approve..


Where do they break? Ducati mapping makes sure the power goes down 400-600 revs before the limiter. This so you would shift to a higher gear sooner than the engine can go. Rapidbike allows you first to get 6-8 bhp more at the top and then to coninue to carry all that power right up to the limiter. This allows for going longer in a gear and depending on the track , can avoid an upshift and a downshift. This however puts tremendous stress on the engine as it is right at the very top of the rev range. So not only does the engine rv higher , it also does so for perhaps 3 X as long. So the stress at the top increases like 6 fold in on couple of bends.. and this then all day long...

Ask yourself a question ; if a raced Superstock R engine requires a 5000 euro complete rebuild every 1500 km, how could basically the same engine with barely 8 bhp less not need more maintenance when run intensely? And spirited tracking is much closer to racing than going for a Starbucks... the Alstare engines need rebuilds every 600 km... Aprilia has new engines for every race weekend.

Do not worry : BMW blows engines to. But you can buy a beemer for racing purposes without any warranty at quit a discount.

it is simple .. the 200 bhp threshhold has brought superbikes to the very limit of what can be done. And the slightes fiddling takes them into unknown territory. 200bhp in 2007 was factory bike only... now they 're in the showroom... there are limits to what can be done and we're pritty close to that limit. he who denies that does so at his own peril.. and let's be honest : tracking IS expensive ( logisitcs, fees, even gas, tires,... ) so what diff will a bit of oil make ? got to be outright unclever to take that risk..
Click to expand...

With all due respect I just don't buy it. The HP may dip in terms of exponentially increasing output 400-600 rpm before redline, but the power still is increasing until redline. The only thing that indicates "shift now" is the red lights flickering on the dash. And if you miss that (easy to do when your brain is being catapulted at Wipeout XL speeds) the rev limiter kicks in to protect the engine.

I'll agree that the R is tuned to the absolute limit--that is, the limit of what is reliable and warranty-able for 15000+ miles. It's not tuned to the point where it's going to blow up after 2 track days (or races).

The R shares 98% of its components with the S, and any "Euro" dealer who suggests you need to check the thickness of your clutch plates every 300km is full of .... and can't be trusted for anything other than sucking money out of people who, sorry to say, have more money than mechanical knowledge.

Now if we're talking 1199R Superbike, sure, you've got a team of mechanics on salary, so may as well have them measure the o-ring thickness on the tire valve caps every 2.5 hours. But no one on this forum is campaigning a WSBK entry. The title of the thread is "Tracking the 1199 - NEED TO KNOW." And here's what is needed to be known: the 1199 is extremely capable, extraordinarily reliable and doesn't need $5,000 of work after every track day. It can be ridden to work in the rain, put away in the garage wet and then tracked for a weekend without anything more than making sure there's enough gas in the tank to get you home.
 
That's awesome just do that .
A 1098 /1198 get's approx 6000 race km out of it's cases I know of three motors that have .... themselves .I know of a few guys with over 70,000 road km and the occasional track day on the 1098 .
It was never a recall or common knowledge it just happens . Bikes that are raced need more attention it's just a fact .
 
Anti - I agree

with the fact that that schedule is SSTK or WSBK. We must also bear with us that, as you surely know, maintenance schedules for race bikes is to make 100% sure the bike functions to the max of it capability everytime it goes out. So a lot of that maintenance includes this 100% functionality insurance parts replacement program. We'll never know whether these stated miles could still be doubled before they actually do break down as nobody waits long enough to find out.

you're also right that the R will do all you say it does. But there is tracking and tracking. Using the bike on the street and an ocasional track blast is not the same as some of the bikes that are being solely tracked so that get used much more intensely for every mile the do. It takes many trackmiles to get there but eventually it happens.

it is for those that now Ducati have come up with this 'in between' maintenance schedule i referred to, to give it some decent TLC without running into SSTK racing madness...

grtz

K
the R engine having all the racing oriented titanium internals will withstand the abuse. this however seems not to be the case for the bog standard conrods..
 
The forces acting on the engine grow in magnitude as you approach "redline". IOW 80% max rpm vs 100% is not just 20% greater stress/wear. If you think of the difference in the amount of work the bike is doing on the track vs. street there isn't much of a correlation.

The faster you turn the crank the more violent the force is on your whole rotating assembly. Usually the weakest part will fail first. It sounds like the conrods are a weak link when operating at sustained peak rpms both on the Pani and the S1000RR. Frankly it isn't that shocking when you consider the size of the piston/stroke length/CR, etc. and the rev limits that are used.

Titanium helps to reduce rotating mass and Ti's superior strength is less effected by temperature change. These are two of the reasons they use it in order to prevent conrod failures and/or allow a higher rev limit.

Treating your street bike like a race bike means adding a race bike maintenance schedule, at least if you wish it to be as reliable as a street bike. Treating your street bike like a street bike will, you guessed it, require a street maintenance schedule. :)

It isn't much different than equipping the bike with track specific consumables, such as brake pads/rotors, tires, fluids etc as has already been eluded too.

Since Ducati is constantly attempting to balance cost, performance and reliability when creating a maintenance schedule there will still be the occasional failure and inevitable improvement and revisions.
 
Last edited:
2013RedSabs said:
The forces acting on the engine grow in magnitude as you approach "redline". IOW 80% max rpm vs 100% is not just 20% greater stress/wear. If you think of the difference in the amount of work the bike is doing on the track vs. street there isn't much of a correlation.

The faster you turn the crank the more violent the force is on your whole rotating assembly. Usually the weakest part will fail first. It sounds like the conrods are a weak link when operating at sustained peak rpms both on the Pani and the S1000RR. Frankly it isn't that shocking when you consider the size of the piston/stroke length/CR, etc. and the rev limits that are used.

Titanium helps to reduce rotating mass and Ti's superior strength is less effected by temperature change. These are two of the reasons they use it in order to prevent conrod failures and/or allow a higher rev limit.

Treating your street bike like a race bike means adding a race bike maintenance schedule, at least if you wish it to be as reliable as a street bike. Treating your street bike like a street bike will, you guessed it, require a street maintenance schedule. :)

Since Ducati is constantly attempting to balance cost, performance and reliability when creating a maintenance schedule there will still be the occasional failure and inevitable improvement and revisions.
Click to expand...

1199 is not a street bike. In fact Ducati Austin told me specifically tooting around on the 1199 is actually bad for it. Its designed to be a track bike and no one drives on the track at a continual 10k rpm. Its gas then brake over and over.
 
wilkson said:
I know of a couple of conrod failures .This is the main reason I upgraded to a R as it worked out cheaper than fitting new rods to the base model bike .
Click to expand...

What price were you quoted?

Actually, this thread kind of concerns me. The bike is marketed as a race bike, but frankly that seems to be for bragging rights and not actually for that type of riding. The fact that you need to upgrade engine internals for reliability is just dumbfounding.
 
bronch said:
What price were you quoted?

Actually, this thread kind of concerns me. The bike is marketed as a race bike, but frankly that seems to be for bragging rights and not actually for that type of riding. The fact that you need to upgrade engine internals for reliability is just dumbfounding.
Click to expand...

No one official is saying that. There are plenty of members that ride our bikes and nothing has happened yet beyond reasonable failure. Remember most vehicles have a failure rate of .1-1% so its not a big deal to hear of 1 or 2 engines blowing up here or there. Now if they weren't being covered under warranty or it was 1 out of 50 or worse then its reason for concern.
 
gatti man said:
No one official is saying that. There are plenty of members that ride our bikes and nothing has happened yet beyond reasonable failure. Remember most vehicles have a failure rate of .1-1% so its not a big deal to hear of 1 or 2 engines blowing up here or there. Now if they weren't being covered under warranty or it was 1 out of 50 or worse then its reason for concern.
Click to expand...

I agree, I kind of posted this tongue-in-cheek. Just wasn't well executed. The fact that the OP posted this .... in a forum chock full of "every-day" riders and not the forum for elite racers of the world, which I get the sense he thinks he's part of, just irks me a bit. I call BS.
 
bronch said:
I agree, I kind of posted this tongue-in-cheek. Just wasn't well executed. The fact that the OP posted this .... in a forum chock full of "every-day" riders and not the forum for elite racers of the world, which I get the sense he thinks he's part of, just irks me a bit. I call BS.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think there are a select few dealers trying to get more money from early service too. I mean why else would I be hearing conflicting reports between dealers. Ducati Austin supports more track riders than just me and everyone there tracks some kind of ducati or MV so they aren't idiots. Just sayin.
 
gatti man said:
1199 is not a street bike. In fact Ducati Austin told me specifically tooting around on the 1199 is actually bad for it. Its designed to be a track bike and no one drives on the track at a continual 10k rpm. Its gas then brake over and over.
Click to expand...

While I agree that the Pani is a "track orientated" bike, it still has to be used on the street so compromises have to be made. I.E. homologation models, "Wherever any compromise was made on the 1098S for the purpose of making it a more street-friendly and consumer-ready vehicle (for example, reliability, rideability, economy) the 1098R's design makes a far more limited compromise or no compromise at all." - Wiki

Continual rpms depend in part on the length of the straights, the length of the bends, available traction, gear ratios, etc. Under track conditions it should not be difficult to keep your bike within a sustained power-band. Race bikes are tuned (optimized) for one specific track at a time for this very reason. The goal is to stay within the best PB range for the most average time on a given course. Of course we also have to throw in suspension geometry and other factors... compromises go with the territory (like maintenance frequency), so it often isn't this black and white.

Of course you need to brake on track, but then the throttle comes on hard (100%) and non-stop until corner entry. How many times do you bounce off the rev limiter on your average street cruise? These type of conditions only occur for like 1-2 sec at a time on the street? On the track it can be sustained for an order of magnitude longer. Higher revs for longer if comparing race miles to street miles.

DDA is a great tool that might help demonstrate my point better. Maybe someone can upload some comparos between their track data vs their street data?

Personally, I find myself between 4-8k most of the time on the street. IE mid-range power-band. When on the Highway say 6-9k with the occasional red flash. ;) The Ghost rider (Sweden) and the guys that do the IOM TT are extreme examples of sustained high rpms conditions. If I were them, and I was permitted too, I would use Ti internals and higher tolerances in addition to a complete rebuild after each event. Peak performance demands frequently checking tolerances and inspecting for fatigue and wearing components BEFORE they fail. IMO, track-only + street schedule maintenance = FAIL. It is just far too long between thorough inspections.

I completely agreed with Austin Ducati though, these bikes were definitely not designed to toodle around town! :D
 
bronch said:
What price were you quoted?

Actually, this thread kind of concerns me. The bike is marketed as a race bike, but frankly that seems to be for bragging rights and not actually for that type of riding. The fact that you need to upgrade engine internals for reliability is just dumbfounding.
Click to expand...

The guys here are just replacing rods only . The replacement rods have been made the same weight as the standard base rod so not requiring the crank to be balanced just a straight rod swap with only partial assembly .
Guy I race with has just done what I was going to do to mine .
He clocked up 4000 race km on the original motor I am interested to see what the internals look like . I suspect they will be pretty good his a regular oil changer like me .
 
bronch said:
I agree, I kind of posted this tongue-in-cheek. Just wasn't well executed. The fact that the OP posted this .... in a forum chock full of "every-day" riders and not the forum for elite racers of the world, which I get the sense he thinks he's part of, just irks me a bit. I call BS.
Click to expand...

2013RedSabs said:
While I agree that the Pani is a "track orientated" bike, it still has to be used on the street so compromises have to be made. I.E. homologation models, "Wherever any compromise was made on the 1098S for the purpose of making it a more street-friendly and consumer-ready vehicle (for example, reliability, rideability, economy) the 1098R's design makes a far more limited compromise or no compromise at all." - Wiki

Continual rpms depend in part on the length of the straights, the length of the bends, available traction, gear ratios, etc. Under track conditions it should not be difficult to keep your bike within a sustained power-band. Race bikes are tuned (optimized) for one specific track at a time for this very reason. The goal is to stay within the best PB range for the most average time on a given course. Of course we also have to throw in suspension geometry and other factors... compromises go with the territory (like maintenance frequency), so it often isn't this black and white.

Of course you need to brake on track, but then the throttle comes on hard (100%) and non-stop until corner entry. How many times do you bounce off the rev limiter on your average street cruise? These type of conditions only occur for like 1-2 sec at a time on the street? On the track it can be sustained for an order of magnitude longer. Higher revs for longer if comparing race miles to street miles.

DDA is a great tool that might help demonstrate my point better. Maybe someone can upload some comparos between their track data vs their street data?

Personally, I find myself between 4-8k most of the time on the street. IE mid-range power-band. When on the Highway say 6-9k with the occasional red flash. ;) The Ghost rider (Sweden) and the guys that do the IOM TT are extreme examples of sustained high rpms conditions. If I were them, and I was permitted too, I would use Ti internals and higher tolerances in addition to a complete rebuild after each event. Peak performance demands frequently checking tolerances and inspecting for fatigue and wearing components BEFORE they fail. IMO, track-only + street schedule maintenance = FAIL. It is just far too long between thorough inspections.

I completely agreed with Austin Ducati though, these bikes were definitely not designed to toodle around town! :D
Click to expand...


I agree with all you are saying. I actually tried to service my bike earlier and DA said just do more frequent oil changes and keep the regular service intervals. Its verbatim what they told me. I don't bounce my bike off the rev limiter bc it tends to upset the chassis a bit. I will just upshift right before using DQS. The red led lights are very handy. My foot moves when they peak. Its like a reflex now.
 
gatti man said:
I agree with all you are saying. I actually tried to service my bike earlier and DA said just do more frequent oil changes and keep the regular service intervals. Its verbatim what they told me. I don't bounce my bike off the rev limiter bc it tends to upset the chassis a bit. I will just upshift right before using DQS. The red led lights are very handy. My foot moves when they peak. Its like a reflex now.
Click to expand...

Shortening the oil change interval is cheap insurance, just make sure that the oil is being inspected.

Case in point, my car's tuner shop actually cuts open the used oil filter for inspection. We caught a rod bearing that was beginning to fail by doing this kind of check. Normally I go 3000 kms between changes on the car, but in this case it had only been 1000 kms. Same goes for performance bikes.

DQS + OEM Shift lights kick ass! Hey, I wasn't recommending you shift after hitting the rev limiter! LOL. "But officer, I was just practicing..."
 
wilkson said:
The guys here are just replacing rods only . The replacement rods have been made the same weight as the standard base rod so not requiring the crank to be balanced just a straight rod swap with only partial assembly.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that would make sense. Otherwise, the cost would be even less economical. I certainly agree, that if your main purpose is to track the bike the R is the way to go. It's built closer to handle those stresses.
 
kope999R said:
We have a statement from a dealer saying that when scheduled like above, the warranty will be upheld on a 'track only' bike.
Click to expand...

Yes and we have a statement from Ducati Austin saying that regular maintanence with faster oil changes upholds warranty as well. How is one dealer more valid than the next? I bet if you call another dealer you will get another so called maintanence schedule.
 

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