Panigale Brake Upgrades - BEWARE!

[jarelj]

The Panigale has DIFFERENT brakes than prior Ducati Superbikes, and the master cylinder has a smaller piston in it to accomodate the smaller 30mm pistons in the new M50 calipers. So this means that the calipers and master cylinder are NOT interchangeable between the Panigale and the 848/1098/1198 models (or prior 749/999). Brembo does NOT currently have a racing master cylinder available that is compatible with the M50 calipers, they said they'll have one in the future. If you use a traditional 19mm Brembo racing master cylinder with the Panigale M50 calipers, it could potentially blow out the piston seals in the calipers, which would obviously be very bad. So for now, if you want to upgrade the brakes on your Panigale for the track, you'll need different calipers (either a set of OEM monoblocs from a prior model - or a set of Brembo racing calipers), and a traditional Brembo 19mm racing master cylinder in your choice of lever ratio (or the RCS adjustable-ratio one).

 

[Zoenala]

Thanks for the heads up...I was planning to put my R1's RCS19 on. Not that there is too much wrong with the standard 1199 setup.

Just curious, to blow out seals I presume the new M50's operate at a lower pressure, with lower pressure rated seals? The increase in master cylinder (19mm) diameter obviously has the potential to generate a higher pressure than the standard 16mm master cylinder, but it still is a function of how hard you pull the lever...

I'm no expert...just asking

 

[Gim]

Jarel, thanks for the tip!

 

[CHarles foxtrot]

The Panigale has DIFFERENT brakes than prior Ducati Superbikes, and the master cylinder has a smaller piston in it to accomodate the smaller 30mm pistons in the new M50 calipers. So this means that the calipers and master cylinder are NOT interchangeable between the Panigale and the 848/1098/1198 models (or prior 749/999). Brembo does NOT currently have a racing master cylinder available that is compatible with the M50 calipers, they said they'll have one in the future. If you use a traditional 19mm Brembo racing master cylinder with the Panigale M50 calipers, it could potentially blow out the piston seals in the calipers, which would obviously be very bad. So for now, if you want to upgrade the brakes on your Panigale for the track, you'll need different calipers (either a set of OEM monoblocs from a prior model - or a set of Brembo racing calipers), and a traditional Brembo 19mm racing master cylinder in your choice of lever ratio (or the RCS adjustable-ratio one).

What is the difference between those two 19mm master cylinders that would cause one (but not the other) to damage the caliper?

What size master cylinder does the 1199 have?

 

[Zoenala]

Stock master cylinder is 16mm diameter and RCS is 19mm. Brembo M4 has 4 x 34mm diameter pistons and the M50 4 x 30mm.

 

[zvez]

Here's some exc. info posted by Shazaam on the Ducati MS forum

Brembo M50 Panigale callipers on 999? - Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum

"When you design a hydraulic system it's important to have good feedback from the lever as to how much lever force to apply to achieve a desired braking rate. Having good feel, sensitivity and control is the major factor influencing braking quality.

The main factor in designing good braking modulation characteristics is the ratio of the total area of the caliper pistons to the area of the master cylinder.

The Panigale calipers have a total piston area of 5655 sq. mm and has a master cylinder area of 201 sq. mm. This gives a hydraulic ratio of 5655/201 = 28.1.

The RCS brake master cylinder has an area of 284 sq. mm. Used with the Panigale calipers you get an hydraulic ratio of 5655/284 = 19.9.

A general design rule-of-thumb for twin rotor brake systems is as follows:

30:1 - soft feel
27:1 - sweet spot for design
23:1 - firm feel
20:1 - wooden feel

So the use of a RCS master cylinder isn't going to blow your piston seals but it will result in a lever that gives almost no feel, so braking will be extremely hard to modulate.

Dennie, the 1098 monoblocs have a caliper piston area of 7263 sq. in and used with the RCS will give you a very nice hydraulic ratio of 7263/284 = 26.6."
__________________

 

[mig1199]

A friend of mine has the RCS Brembo master on his Panigale "S" racebike.
When I squeezed the brake lever...the level felt so stiff and solid. Hardly any lever play. So then, this theory is correct. His braking is just the same though as the other Panigale riders/racers who are using the stock brembo brake master set-up.

Best to retain the stock set-up...just simply replace stock pads to EBC-HH sintered brake pads and also replace your brake fluid to a higher temp race type kind..like motul's RBF600. With these mods...you can keep stock set up.

Stock brakes are simply awesome as it is...even for racing applications.

 

[wowjudo]

Has anyone upgraded their Master cylinder ?

My current one feels very spongy and it's becoming a real problem

I have to bleed it every week and the dealer has no clue why the air enters the system

I am happy with the m50 and would not prefer to swap them

any suggestion would be appreciated. I'd go for the 19x18 but ye apparently there is a risk to pop out the caliper seals under hard pressure

 

[Marmoot]

I heard it is rcs17 that you would want, not rcs19. My calculation based on the above data have 24.5 ratio, which is around halfway between stock 27.7 (or "sweetspot") and 23 (firm) in the explanation above, but sounds firmer than M4 calipers paired with rcs19 which would give 26.6 ratio.
Keen to hear the experience of people that have tried rcs17 please.


Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

 

[jarelj]

The RCS17 is indeed Brembo's high-performance model made specifically to mate with the M50 calipers. Be aware however that some of the "spongy" feeling might be due to the ABS system, and not possible to eliminate completely by swapping the master.

Brembo 17 RCS Racing Master Cylinder - 1199 Panigale | 40-3-110.A263.40

 

[jdgun]

I have been using the 17 RCS brake master on my Panigale 1199S (non-ABS)for street and track use (stock pads & rotors). I find it to be truly an amazing package, great feel and loads of stopping power, yet able to trail brake if needed with much feel. upper intermediate, slow expert pace.

I also run the 17 RCS with Panigale Brembo M50 calipers on my 675R (sbs race pads and galfer rotors), and feel that the brakes are almost to much at times. You need to be a bit more aware of the power of this set-up, especially when the bike is anything but upright. going to try some different pads to help with less initial bite.

Prior to the RCS 17 coming out, I tired a RCS 19 and also an oem 675R brembo master for M4 monoblocks,... tons of power but no feel..

 

[cmepasu]

I installed M40 calipers and the RCS 19 unit on my 1199s with ABS. Had my first track days this past weekend and the set-up felt fantastic - I'm very happy with it.

Is it better than the RCS 17 with M50s? I cannot say...

 

[Marmoot]

I have been using the 17 RCS brake master on my Panigale 1199S (non-ABS)for street and track use (stock pads & rotors). I find it to be truly an amazing package, great feel and loads of stopping power, yet able to trail brake if needed with much feel. upper intermediate, slow expert pace.

I also run the 17 RCS with Panigale Brembo M50 calipers on my 675R (sbs race pads and galfer rotors), and feel that the brakes are almost to much at times. You need to be a bit more aware of the power of this set-up, especially when the bike is anything but upright. going to try some different pads to help with less initial bite.

Prior to the RCS 17 coming out, I tired a RCS 19 and also an oem 675R brembo master for M4 monoblocks,... tons of power but no feel..

You were saying that it works great on 1199 but not so on 675r?
Interesting. Both bikes have abs (I assume).

I wonder why. Maybe it is the sbs pads and galfer rotors giving too strong a bite that too much exaggerate the m50/rcs17 combo. I know that brembo 93 (stock) pads give very smooth initial bite, unlike other more aggressive pads like ebc that gives a lot more initial brake dive and got my forks bottoming out (with same settings as brembo sa or sc pads that I use).

But thank you for the 1199 comment. Ah, so tempting...

 

[jdgun]

Neither have ABS, and yes what your say is what i have going on. Way to much initial bite with SBS racing pads on the galfer wave rotor combo on my 675R.

Combo works great but personal preference, just like suspension.

 

[wowjudo]

The RCS17 is indeed Brembo's high-performance model made specifically to mate with the M50 calipers. Be aware however that some of the "spongy" feeling might be due to the ABS system, and not possible to eliminate completely by swapping the master.

Brembo 17 RCS Racing Master Cylinder - 1199 Panigale | 40-3-110.A263.40

Thanks, is there a way to adjust the abs system to get rid of the spongy feel or is it just the way it works ?

 

[Claymore]

Thanks, is there a way to adjust the abs system to get rid of the spongy feel or is it just the way it works ?

It is just the way it works...

 

[Fragile]

compressibility spec on your brake fluid choice plays into this as well.

 

[Somefun]

I have been using the 17 RCS brake master on my Panigale 1199S (non-ABS)for street and track use (stock pads & rotors). I find it to be truly an amazing package, great feel and loads of stopping power, yet able to trail brake if needed with much feel. upper intermediate, slow expert pace.

I also run the 17 RCS with Panigale Brembo M50 calipers on my 675R (sbs race pads and galfer rotors), and feel that the brakes are almost to much at times. You need to be a bit more aware of the power of this set-up, especially when the bike is anything but upright. going to try some different pads to help with less initial bite.

Prior to the RCS 17 coming out, I tired a RCS 19 and also an oem 675R brembo master for M4 monoblocks,... tons of power but no feel..

I'm looking at picking up the RCS17 and thought I heard the lever wouldn't clear the starter button assembly? do you know if that's the case?

 

[wfoduck]

I'm looking at picking up the RCS17 and thought I heard the lever wouldn't clear the starter button assembly? do you know if that's the case?

That is the case, you can get the bsd or the ducabike switches for use with the rcs17 master. I run bsd race switches on both sides

 

[Calderara di Reno]

All interesting, I'm running an 18-20 RCS MC on my race bike, only used it turned to 18, which is mechanical leverage to mimic a smaller piston feel. I seriously dont think a 19mm piston is going to blow out caliper seals ! The 16mm piston actually creates more pressure and has to travel further in its stroke , hence more feel and control to your fingers.