Additional cooling - how and where

Hi folks,

I need to lower the temp om my racebike, witch is close to 100 C in the races.

Any expirence with ordinare oil cooler ? Is there any kit available ?

Bigger or different water radiators ?

Other suggestions ?

I am using watterwetter and are not running the engine to lean ;-)

BowHunter said:

Hi folks,

I need to lower the temp om my racebike, witch is close to 100 C in the races.

Any expirence with ordinare oil cooler ? Is there any kit available ?

Bigger or different water radiators ?

Other suggestions ?

I am using watterwetter and are not running the engine to lean ;-)

Click to expand...

SamcoSport 2012-2013 Ducati 1199 / S Panigale Radiator Hose Kit

These may help....

Don't you know fellow forum member Kope? I'm sure he has the most experience here with he and his friends with 1199's making modifications for track-only use in Europe. I have read about aftermarket coolant radiators for the 1199 that are usually the first modification for serious racing.

Good luck and please let us know what modifications you go with.

BowHunter said:

Hi folks,



I need to lower the temp om my racebike, witch is close to 100 C in the races.



Any expirence with ordinare oil cooler ? Is there any kit available ?



Bigger or different water radiators ?



Other suggestions ?



I am using watterwetter and are not running the engine to lean ;-)

Click to expand...

Check this out

http://www.febur.it/radiatorducatiracing.html

I have several friends that use this radiator and they are very happy. Kope got it as well.

That's the radiator I've seen, forgot the name. Thanks Scorpio

100°C in race conditions is pretty good IMHO.

Maybe if you throw a few grand at it you might get down to 97° but not much further.

fireman1251 said:

100°C in race conditions is pretty good IMHO.

Maybe if you throw a few grand at it you might get down to 97° but not much further.

Click to expand...

as far as I know it doesn't go over 75 degrees in the track.

Normal running temps would be between 85°C and 95°C.

Actually, you don't need to lower your operating temps.
100C is the boiling temp of water at atmospheric pressure.
The system is pressurized so it can operate higher than the boiling point.
100C is not hot, 140C is hot and almost every air-cooled bike runs there on the race-track.
Air-cooled H-Ds make their best power around 110C.

At the beginning of MotoGP Ducati ran their 880cc engine above 115C so that they could use less cooling air and decreased the drag of their bikes. They had the fastest time at Hockenheim because of that, but the 'underhood' air that leaked out of the fairing caused Capirossi burns on his thighs. They opened the fairings for a bit more cooling air which increased the drag and their top speed dropped several mph but the riders didn't suffer burns.

The higher your coolant temps, the greater amount of heat energy is shed for every cubic foot of air through the fairing. When the coolant temp reaches an equilibrium or constant temp at 100C you are golden.

The point is: 100C ain't hot, worry about something else. Spend that money on track-time.

Doug

So what's your take on using an oil cooler? I'm in the process of installing one. Worth the cost? I figured it would be a performance gain....am I wrong?


Your point BTW is pretty valid as in my day in MX the air cooled 2 strokes ran hot as hell, but were always faster than the new water cooled bikes.

moperfserv said:

Actually, you don't need to lower your operating temps.
100C is the boiling temp of water at atmospheric pressure.
The system is pressurized so it can operate higher than the boiling point.
100C is not hot, 140C is hot and almost every air-cooled bike runs there on the race-track.
Air-cooled H-Ds make their best power around 110C.

At the beginning of MotoGP Ducati ran their 880cc engine above 115C so that they could use less cooling air and decreased the drag of their bikes. They had the fastest time at Hockenheim because of that, but the 'underhood' air that leaked out of the fairing caused Capirossi burns on his thighs. They opened the fairings for a bit more cooling air which increased the drag and their top speed dropped several mph but the riders didn't suffer burns.

The higher your coolant temps, the greater amount of heat energy is shed for every cubic foot of air through the fairing. When the coolant temp reaches an equilibrium or constant temp at 100C you are golden.

The point is: 100C ain't hot, worry about something else. Spend that money on track-time.

Doug

Click to expand...

moperfserv said:

Actually, you don't need to lower your operating temps.
100C is the boiling temp of water at atmospheric pressure.
The system is pressurized so it can operate higher than the boiling point.
100C is not hot, 140C is hot and almost every air-cooled bike runs there on the race-track.
Air-cooled H-Ds make their best power around 110C.

At the beginning of MotoGP Ducati ran their 880cc engine above 115C so that they could use less cooling air and decreased the drag of their bikes. They had the fastest time at Hockenheim because of that, but the 'underhood' air that leaked out of the fairing caused Capirossi burns on his thighs. They opened the fairings for a bit more cooling air which increased the drag and their top speed dropped several mph but the riders didn't suffer burns.

The higher your coolant temps, the greater amount of heat energy is shed for every cubic foot of air through the fairing. When the coolant temp reaches an equilibrium or constant temp at 100C you are golden.

The point is: 100C ain't hot, worry about something else. Spend that money on track-time.

Doug

Click to expand...

Quite correct

moperfserv said:

Actually, you don't need to lower your operating temps.
100C is the boiling temp of water at atmospheric pressure.
The system is pressurized so it can operate higher than the boiling point.
100C is not hot, 140C is hot and almost every air-cooled bike runs there on the race-track.
Air-cooled H-Ds make their best power around 110C.

Doug

Click to expand...

On air-cooled engines it's oil temps, not water temps.

140° oil makes for about 100° coolant.

also silicone is nowhere near as good a conductor of heat than the rubber hoses that are on there now. . It has a lot of other better properties, but in terms of heat dissipating through the hoses, rubber is much better.

Hmmm - I'm just trying to avoid the massive powerdrop I saw on the dyne with temps above 90 c - @ 95 C the drop is in excess of 10 BHP eventhoug AFR did'nt change much.

Bowhunter,

Look up Doug Lofgren then move on to the next problem.

Bowhunter, if you saw drops in power above 95C then something needs to be changed to get it back but it is probably some table like coolant temp vs ignition retard to blame rather than, temp alone.
I had a difficult time getting the coolant temps up last fall when I did the last two, so I would have missed a drop in power at 100C.
fireman1251, the early air-cooled 2-valve Ducatis used an engine temp sensor in the front inlet valve cover which took forever to respond causing them to stay in warm-up mode for way too long. The later Monsters with the VDO/Siemens/Continental ECU had an engine temp sensor somewhere else (I haven't tried very hard to even locate it) and the H-Ds do have a sensor imbedded in the front head.
So, I was referencing engine temps rather than oil temps. Saying that, there is a possibility to see a big variation based on sensor location.

Years ago, someone told me that the Porsche endurance racers back off the boost when their oil temps get to 300F (commercial engine oils do tend to foam right around 290F.)
Finally, the Panigales that I've seen do have an oil cooler, but it is a coolant/oil intercooler. Which implies that oil temps above the boiling point of water (100C) are actually cool.

Doug

Sorry to see this thread in particular and the entire Mech. and Tech. section stopped-dead-in-its-tracks, but a little follow-up is in order.

I looked closely at the 1199R calibration and there are (at least) 2 tables that have an effect on power based on engine temp.

There is a timing vs temp table that ....... the ignition timing 2 degrees from 80C to 90C and up.

And there is a fuel correction vs temp table that decreases the fuel by 2.2% from 90C to 100C.

Neither of these should cause a drop of 6% in power from 90C to 100C, in fact the ignition correction should show its effect from 70C to 80C.

There are hundreds of tables in these calibrations and many are not yet defined.
Chris Steedman, CJS Porting, has done a bunch of the Panigales in the UK and he's the one who has tested/confirmed/defined most of the tables.
Here in the US its like pulling teeth to get anyone to have their 1199 tuned, and they all need it.
Chris has found that each of these 1199s need to have a custom map. A very good calibration for one is next to useless on the next. The known variables are, fuel pressure and injector flow, but the observed variation is much greater than I would expect form just those two.

This AFR variation would explain why some make 175 hp and others make 190 hp. Although, the ones that make 190 hp don't usually get there by accident.

Anyway Bowhunter, I think you would be well advised to get the tuning done and that should solve your power loss at 100C rather than any attempts to re-engineer the cooling system on your 1199. I'm sure an entire division of engineers and technicians has worked months if not years to give us the cooling system of the Panigale.

Any more input from you will help the rest of us understand.

Doug