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Stop being so open-minded, Phil. You are a superbike rider, you betta recognize, son! How dare you like bikes of all shapes and sizes!
After ripping on this thing for belts and forward controls (lol @ gyno controls, btw, that's a new one for me), let's move on to bashing the scrambler for diluting the Ducati brand.
I think it was Henry Ford who said: You can have it in any style you want, as long it's bright red and in racing-prone position.
:eats popcorn:
jarelj
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|| Yes, this! No one on this forum is a target market for the Diavel. Things that I hear, that I personally think "What?!?!" as a reason for not liking a bike, are exactly this type of thing. For the Diavel: the pegs are too far back, the bars are too "agressive" and put too much weight on your wrists, chain drive reuqires too much maintenance, the brakes are too "touchy", and it doesn't have any low pipe options for it.
Keep in in perspective.. This bike isn't marketed for people who like riding fast bikes fast, it's for people who hop on it for the weekend and cruise with the guys. It absolutely will sell great with the Harley/Cruiser crowd. My brother rides a VTX 1800 I tried to get him to demo a Diavel but the peg placement turned him off, just like every other cruiser guy I talked to, otherwise they loved the idea of it, power/weight etc.
I'm sure I will die a little inside when my brother gets one and slaps floor boards on it though.[/QU
You just made my point!
Ducati's have never been about "CRUISERS" that want to "cruise with the guys" Ducati has always designed bikes for these that want something different and unique/elite. That has been their image since day one. Now they are prostituting themselves for market share and they will end up being just another expensive brand and will lose their mystique.. Personally I thought the Diavel was pushing the limits and although it has a lot of following because it is powerful and cool looking and it handles very well that is the very reason it did well.. (although there are a lot of them unsold so far on the showroom at my local Ducati dealer) It is on the fringe of becoming another "cruiser" now. If they go with the peg forward design I am sure someone will buy one here and there but they will flop overall in my opinion.
Ducati is getting out of their design philosophy that has made them unique and a marque all its own.... They make fast, sexy, exotic, Desmodromic valved, (relatively expensive to maintain but getting better) well machined motorcycles! If they dilute their image they will end up like Yamaha Honda, Kawasaki Suzuki.. etc.. Everyone and their cousin will have one (due to the inevitable "Special financing" Ie; lease with a big balloon note ant the end) and they will be just another bike out there.. Ducati's now hold a special image even if they are 15 years old.. They have a unique name recognition and status.. Flood the market with also ran "cruisers" and you are just another pretty face..
When I see the word CRUISER, the impression I get is someone that has little motorcycling skill and just wants to ride around town and impress their friends. They are usually the ones not wearing helmets etc, that we read about in the paper after a "terrible accident" that could have been avoided if they had just had better riding skills and more experience.
The "Cruiser " crowd is more concerned about their "Image" and they are usually the ones that don't want to wear a helmet because they want everyone to see how "cool they look. Of course this mindset is also in the sport bike crowd also. They are usually the ones showing up at bike night with a ridiculously stretched out R-1 or GSXR etc. ( Of course,with the obligatory neon lights and everything chromed out ) etc. etc. To each his own but they are usually the ones that get hurt or killed because of riding stupidly and lack or riding skills.. And of course that comes along with a long swing arm and lowered bike ( one that handles terrible other than in a straight line LOL.)
Well I digress. Back to the Diavel with the forward pegs topic.. In my opinion this will be crappy handling (for a Ducati) flop..
The original Diavel handles much better than you would expect (especially with that huge rear tire) but there is no way to make a forward peg "laid back" bike as maneuverable. Just try to lift yourself up on a forward mounted peg bike to go over a big bump or train tracks, or a pothole etc.. On a more centrally mounted peg bike you can get your butt up off the seat and go over stuff much easier..
On a forward peg bike If you are going to have to ride over real bumpy train tracks or pothole etc.you just have to grit your teeth and ride it out (and hopefully go over it without crashing out).. You also don't have your weight centered properly for good handling in corners as opposed to the more center mounted pegs. Even the motorcycle cops have gotten away from the old style Harleys ..They just don't have the same options when it comes to everyday practical riding situations.
Just my opinion others may vary..
Speedy
jarelj
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The problem of course it that you're describing the Diavel that YOU or I would want, and that's not necessarily the Diavel the rest of the market wants. Look at the Scrambler. Ducati launched something that is clearly not in line with your description of what the brand means to you, yet the bike is a huge success and hasn't hurt the rest of the Ducati image in any way that I've seen.
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My Buell xb9sx was belt.
OK point taken. But here is MY OPINION.... Maybe others can chime in too on their opinion since this is what this forum is all about?
Just to play devils advocate. Let's look at some current fasts..
Regarding your Scrambler remark..
The Scrambler is marketed as" it's own line" It has it's "own accessories" line etc..It is marketed as a "Scrambler line" all its own.. You are right it is be a success because it strikes some nostalgia from riders young and old that are either new to riding or experienced and just want a fun bike that is relatively affordable.( I guess $8900 to $9500 is considered affordable nowadays)
Bikes that like the old original once cylinder Ducati Scrambler and other of the many "enduro's" from the 70's It is a totally new marketing approach and new product unlike any other manufacturers out there..! That is a Ducati trait.. To be exclusive and different. Right?
The "new Diavel" design looks like just another (albeit probably a much more expensive) American cruiser..! Every manufacturer makes one already.. Like the Star Raider, Victory Hammer, Harley V rod's. Suzuki Boulevards, Honda CTX's, Yamaha V Star's Kawasaki Vulcan etc etc ad-nausea.... Most of these are belt driven, forward mounted pegs, pulled back handlebar laid back cruisers.. And they are much cheaper than the new Diavel will undoubtedly be. Sure, they will have some buyers for the new bike. Maybe get some cross overs from the other brands. I just think that overall they will not sell that many..
** The current Diavel was a totally new design and far from a typical American cruiser. Many did not even know what to think of it (or how to classify it) when it first arrived. It was totally different... It runs fast, it handles great for a bike of it's design..! Mainly because it has mid mounted pegs (where you can actually get some leverage and handle the bike more like a sport bike. It has a sports bike derived chassis and frame . For what it is , it as a awesome bike and offers a lot of excitement for the money. It IS a departure from what Ducati has been building and it is a good thing to see. However it was TOTALLY different and really created another category!! The only other Jap bike that was even in the same category was the Star V Max (remake of the old V Max).. And it would outrun the V Max in the 1/4 mile ..and out handle and out brake it all over the place since it was over 150 lbs. lighter and had a chassis designed to handle curves..( Even with that 240 section rear tire...! )
What different category will the new "Cruiser Diavel" with all the same old designs of forward pegs laid back handlebars, belt drive etc create?
It will probably be the fastest one in its category. That would be something...! But will it be enough to really sell well? It will also be much more expensive than a lot of than other offerings and not THAT much more bike for the money.. In general the "Harley crowd" buys the name and status of Harley. The other cruiser buyers purchase the Jap brands because they want the image (but not the cost) of the Harley right? (They also probably like the better reliability and build quality over the Harley LOL) That is why you see so many Jap bikes making a knock off of the Harley style cruiser..
These former Japanese Cruiser buyers will mostly be the ones that get the new Diavel.. They might be the best market..
*To a typical die hard Harley guy, They would not even consider any other brand.. That is the brilliance of the Harley Davidson marketing.. They sell their brand and then of course everyone has to purchase their accessories etc. and pay the "Harley Tax" (all the obligatory loud pipes, so called 'Custom accessories") that they pick off a wall at the Harley dealership LOL.
Harley owners wear their shirts and other Harley badged items with Pride.. That is great marketing..!!
Well the Ducati is a similar situation.. They have a certain upper crust level niche carved out also.. That niche is beautiful Italian made, fast and expensive, sexy motorcycles.. It doesn't matter whether you ride a 15 year old Supersport 900, a 999 , 998, 996, 916 Ducati or a new Panigale R or Monster etc. you have NAME recognition and it is tied to the fast sexy bikes that Ducati is famous for. What is going to be the purpose of diluting their image with run of the mill cruisers that they will inevitably be stuck with on show room floors at the end of the year..?
Will Ducati dealers eventually see bikers with leather or denim vests (with stickers and pins all over them LOL) coming in to their dealerships to buy "Ducati" leather chaps, leather vests (with the obligatory chains etc) LOL... Will we see Ducati bikers dressed up like one of the Village People riding their Cruiser Diavels? I think not.. I certainly HOPE NOT LOL... If so what in the hell is this world coming too?
Oh well at this point it is all just speculation . I am sure someone up there at the Ducati design studios and marketing department will come up to the guy that designed the bike in the pictures and say "Sorry but this is just not the Ducati philosophy".. If not, then we will see a lot of changes in the brand and the world will be different for the true Ducatisti.
Speedy..
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I think you're underestimating the amount of money to be made from DP-branded ape hangers and floorboards.
As for this statement -
- I'd submit that the appearance of a (proposed) Ducati with highway pegs is evidence that someone is screwing around with the rest of that Ducati image (and not in a good way).
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I find all of the bitching and moaning and talk of "Ducati brand" to be really elitist and arrogant. Is a Scrambler really all that different from a Monster 696? Certainly both are leagues away from the 1199/1299.
As long as Ducati makes quality bikes with great designs, what do we care about the other models? The crown jewel is the 1199/1299 and that's what truly defines the image. Everything else is just trying to be more inclusive for different styles. If you have no problem with a Monster or a standard-peg Diavel, you should have no problem with a Scrambler for forward-peg Diavel.
It's a silly distraction, really.
What matters is our race performance - and the last few years it's not been good. If you want to talk about hurting the brand, let's focus there. I, for one, welcome new revenue streams that would enable the R&D dept to have the funds needed to make the race bikes competitive again.
As long as Ducati makes quality bikes with great designs, what do we care about the other models? The crown jewel is the 1199/1299 and that's what truly defines the image. Everything else is just trying to be more inclusive for different styles. If you have no problem with a Monster or a standard-peg Diavel, you should have no problem with a Scrambler for forward-peg Diavel.
It's a silly distraction, really.
What matters is our race performance - and the last few years it's not been good. If you want to talk about hurting the brand, let's focus there. I, for one, welcome new revenue streams that would enable the R&D dept to have the funds needed to make the race bikes competitive again.
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I'll chime in; great point about the Scrabbler, great bike though most of us aren't in the market.
Most of us on this forum are sport bike riders, so the Diavel that we'd like to see, isn't what most that are actually in the market would want. I have lots of buds that ride Harley's and can tell you that the bike has been a HUGE success for them, accounting for a large portion of their sales. Certainly not a flop.
Ducati is in the business of making money and sometimes horizons have to be broadened to do that. A niche bike won't make huge profits and R&D for our racing segment could suffer also, if the money's not there.
I'm all for the new bike
Most of us on this forum are sport bike riders, so the Diavel that we'd like to see, isn't what most that are actually in the market would want. I have lots of buds that ride Harley's and can tell you that the bike has been a HUGE success for them, accounting for a large portion of their sales. Certainly not a flop.
Ducati is in the business of making money and sometimes horizons have to be broadened to do that. A niche bike won't make huge profits and R&D for our racing segment could suffer also, if the money's not there.
I'm all for the new bike
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I think Ducati really ought to make a proper cruiser. This means forward pegs, crappy handling, but supreme comfort. The cruiser market is HUGE; we may not notice it per se, but I have a friend who sells Harleys. She's selling $30-40k behemoths all day long. I had NO idea Harleys could cost that much. And I thought the Panigale R was pricey. There's a lot more people wanting to buy $35,000 motorcycles than one would imagine; they just want them in cruiser format with cup holders.
What can Ducati bring to the cruiser market? Significantly lighter weight, for one. And grunt, lots of grunt (which the Diavel already has).
I personally like the current Diavel, and if it had been offered in a Granturismo format, with enormous bags, I'd have gotten one over my Multistrada GT.
There's nothing wrong with a brand offering something for everyone.
P.S. While the price is so low I could just buy one on a whim, I can't justify owning one, especially with my wife's 796 Monster in the garage. BUT.....I really, really like the Scrambler. It is slow, but every time I've ridden one, I just had a lot of fun. The price point helps a lot, but it is a very good bike that certainly appeals to a wide range of riders. If I lived in a really big city and commuted downtown a lot, and didn't want to be constantly paranoid about my bike being knocked over/vandalized/stolen, I'd have my 1299 for weekend fun and a Scrambler for that daily commute.
What can Ducati bring to the cruiser market? Significantly lighter weight, for one. And grunt, lots of grunt (which the Diavel already has).
I personally like the current Diavel, and if it had been offered in a Granturismo format, with enormous bags, I'd have gotten one over my Multistrada GT.
There's nothing wrong with a brand offering something for everyone.
P.S. While the price is so low I could just buy one on a whim, I can't justify owning one, especially with my wife's 796 Monster in the garage. BUT.....I really, really like the Scrambler. It is slow, but every time I've ridden one, I just had a lot of fun. The price point helps a lot, but it is a very good bike that certainly appeals to a wide range of riders. If I lived in a really big city and commuted downtown a lot, and didn't want to be constantly paranoid about my bike being knocked over/vandalized/stolen, I'd have my 1299 for weekend fun and a Scrambler for that daily commute.
OK you have expressed your opinion also Thais is what is good about this forum We can all chime in. But I do have one question about one of your statements?
What matters is our race performance - and the last few years it's not been good. If you want to talk about hurting the brand, let's focus there. I, for one, welcome new revenue streams that would enable the R&D dept to have the funds needed to make the race bikes competitive again.[/
Question Using you logic...If Ducati has its reputation built on RACE performance, then how is selling chopped out Cruisers to the Harley/Cruiser minded individuals going to increase sales..? LOL Last time I looked Harley was not racing anything other than dirt tracks. (and not doing too well at that either )
Speedy
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I think you're missing the point: What is a given brand known for and/or associated with?
Ducati "brand" is racing, race bikes, and race pedigree. Whatever money they can get to ensure there are better race bikes and wins in racing is generally a good thing.
The definitive bikes for Ducati will always be the 1199/1299 (race) bikes, even if they don't represent the bulk of the volume. In order to protect the brand and have these halo products (that cause people to want to own something from a company capable of engineering them) we will need some wins along the way.
The Harley brand is... "Murica" ...something very different
I'll chime in; great point about the Scrabbler, great bike though most of us aren't in the market.
Most of us on this forum are sport bike riders, so the Diavel that we'd like to see, isn't what most that are actually in the market would want. I have lots of buds that ride Harley's and can tell you that the bike has been a HUGE success for them, accounting for a large portion of their sales. Certainly not a flop.
Ducati is in the business of making money and sometimes horizons have to be broadened to do that. A niche bike won't make huge profits and R&D for our racing segment could suffer also, if the money's not there.
I'm all for the new bike
Yeah I can see it now..
Rowdy Ducati Diavel bikers wearing chains and leather just riding up to Starbucks and terrorizing them with their loud pipes and tacky clothes.. LOL..
Of course they would not really be welcome any more than those of us on sport bikes at the "real biker bars. meetings and hangouts.. Talk about elitist..!
If you want to see "real elitism" just pull up to a Harley biker meeting on your Diavel. You will get some looks and maybe some of them will actually like your bike and be somewhat curious. But.. Overall, you will be shunned by the elitist old time so called "real Harley riders". Just riding down the street many will not wave back at you if you are on a sport bike, and you are not "One of them" *** Some "purist" Harley guys don't even like the Harley V Rod.. They don realize the technology that went into building the V Rod motor.. It was a joint venture with Porsche and it took 5 years to develop..
There are always exceptions. However as a whole the Harley/ Cruiser crowd are a elitist bunch and most often flock within their own crowd. Just like the sport bike crowd tends not to congregate and ride a lot with the cruisers.
(I don't either because to me they are unbearably SLOOOOWWW and just plain boring.. LOL..) It is just human nature. We are all "elitist one way or another.
As far as money goes, Ducati doesn't need to sell choppers or cruisers to finance their "Racing and development" money... They have PLENTY of money They got bought out by Audi. Their overall sales are booming the last few years and so far they not had to prostitute themselves to the market for money.. Just because there is money in something doesn't mean it is a good fit for a motorcycle company. In the long run they could alienate their core customers and put a lot of money in a big flop like a Diavel with forward mounted pegs and a rubber belt drive.
Their Image right now is great. Example: Just five years ago, if I wore a Ducati shirt around someone that did not ride they would ask what it meant. Now since Ducati has developed their image through great advertising ( and having their fast, sexy bikes in various movies and other exposures) they are a status symbol to more and more people. That is what sells bikes nowadays...!
Let the cruiser companies like Harley, the new Indian and Victory motorcycle companies market their own products. Of course that is just my opinion.. Others may vary... Who agrees or disagrees?
I would be interested to hear all angles and arguments to my statements..
It's kind'a fun...
Speedy
Nothing really wrong with that in most situations it is is jut the way things are..
Personally I could care less about impressing them or anyone else for that matter..But isn't that what the Cruiser styling is all about? They certainly aren't really comfortable for me anyway. They put you in an uncomfortable position for your back and arms.. Oh well if that is what blows your skirt who am I to judge..? LOL
My Diavel cornered pretty damn well for what it was! Could carry triple digits through sweepers easily and confidently. No switchbacks around here to really test it.
Precisely. You have a great bike that stayed true to the essence of a Ducati
Now as an experiment let's take that great handling bike. Move the pegs forward, pull back the handlebars to get that 'cruiser' look and stance..That will of course move the weight bias more to the rear so forget about diving in deep trailing on the front brake into a corner like you can now.... it will also steer pretty heavy in slower parking lots Just like the 'cruisers' right? after all that is what you want right?
Of course that alteration will also necessitate lowering the whole bike to get that cool 'cruiser look and feel'. You will most certainly drag hard parts in those same corners you used to enjoy (instead of your knee LOL).
But it will look cool right? Oh and it will be a LOT harder to steer with that big 240section Pirelli on the rear since you totally screwed up the geometry that the Ducati engineers spent many hours and millions of dollars to get just right..
That's OK you will LOOK cool.
Oh darn I forgot about that good looking big old rubber belt (with all the legally required covers over it) going back to the rear wheel. Maybe Ducati will have some carbon goodies to hide that hideous rubber belt. Just maybe... Well at least it's low maintenance right? Who cares as long as it has the proper Harley/cruiser look right? At least you are cool. LOL.
The old Diavel could do a great job of keeping up with your buds on their sportbikes in the twisters. Well.. not really any more, so you need to find another crowd to ride with.. I'm sure you will eventually get used to the 'slower' pace...
With that new crowd
Well I guess then all the 'real bikers' will come around and give you the street cred you want now after all the changes that were made to emulate their 'cool' bikes... or maybe not... after all it is STILL not a Harley.. dog gone it... at least you tried LOL
Speedy
Now as an experiment let's take that great handling bike. Move the pegs forward, pull back the handlebars to get that 'cruiser' look and stance..That will of course move the weight bias more to the rear so forget about diving in deep trailing on the front brake into a corner like you can now.... it will also steer pretty heavy in slower parking lots Just like the 'cruisers' right? after all that is what you want right?
Of course that alteration will also necessitate lowering the whole bike to get that cool 'cruiser look and feel'. You will most certainly drag hard parts in those same corners you used to enjoy (instead of your knee LOL).
But it will look cool right? Oh and it will be a LOT harder to steer with that big 240section Pirelli on the rear since you totally screwed up the geometry that the Ducati engineers spent many hours and millions of dollars to get just right..
That's OK you will LOOK cool.
Oh darn I forgot about that good looking big old rubber belt (with all the legally required covers over it) going back to the rear wheel. Maybe Ducati will have some carbon goodies to hide that hideous rubber belt. Just maybe... Well at least it's low maintenance right? Who cares as long as it has the proper Harley/cruiser look right? At least you are cool. LOL.
The old Diavel could do a great job of keeping up with your buds on their sportbikes in the twisters. Well.. not really any more, so you need to find another crowd to ride with.. I'm sure you will eventually get used to the 'slower' pace...
With that new crowd
Well I guess then all the 'real bikers' will come around and give you the street cred you want now after all the changes that were made to emulate their 'cool' bikes... or maybe not... after all it is STILL not a Harley.. dog gone it... at least you tried LOL
Speedy
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