Panigale R in WSBK

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Not really surprising; as Jared Earle at Motomatters put it, at Aragon, "fast beats agile". Checa said they've always struggled against the speed of the 4's there. Keep in mind Ducati are still running the 50mm intake restrictors from last year (compared to a stock 1199's 62mm equivalent). FIM's in-season "performance balancing" tech regs allow for a first step to 52mm, then to removal if that's not enough. The Pani engine depends on high rev breathing (big bore, big valves, etc.) for power, so it suffers more than the 1198 would on top. Remember the Pani went into design stage before the restrictions existed.

If they show enough of a performance deficit early in the season, they might get some relief from the rulemakers, and should. Better for all involved to have Ducati competitive rather than bogged down by rules. Still was quick enough for pole at PI and the bike was obviously good in the corners from watching Checa on it, but was down on speed there too.
 
Not really surprising; as Jared Earle at Motomatters put it, at Aragon, "fast beats agile". Checa said they've always struggled against the speed of the 4's there. Keep in mind Ducati are still running the 50mm intake restrictors from last year (compared to a stock 1199's 62mm equivalent). FIM's in-season "performance balancing" tech regs allow for a first step to 52mm, then to removal if that's not enough. The Pani engine depends on high rev breathing (big bore, big valves, etc.) for power, so it suffers more than the 1198 would on top. Remember the Pani went into design stage before the restrictions existed.

If they show enough of a performance deficit early in the season, they might get some relief from the rulemakers, and should. Better for all involved to have Ducati competitive rather than bogged down by rules. Still was quick enough for pole at PI and the bike was obviously good in the corners from watching Checa on it, but was down on speed there too.

All excellent points. I had forgotten about the restrictors. I thought new bike it should not have any restrictions but I was mistaken. I look forward to see the Panigale evolve.
 
Aragon has a 2km back straight, the longest in the World Series, and starts from a 1st gear corner, the 4 ' s are just that much quicker than the twin Ducati's along there ( about 308 vs 330 km/ h) enough to be a second down. The new engine is really suffering up top with the restrictors as it was designed to rev higher than the 1198 engine.
They really should have been allowed to start unrestricted, but they are lobbying to have it removed.

Lets see, and don't forget Checa is still not right and Bodovini can hardly walk, so I think this wont be Ducati's weekend, just not a twin track.
 
Duc,

i fully agree.. the bike has it all to make it. Just a mtter of time that it is clear to anyone that 4's have evolved immensly as well and that there hardly is any diff anymore..

from what we hear, they have a very hard time making the current and insuficient power with these restrictors and to make the engine reliable.

secondly, and more alarming is the cry out from Neukircher's MR team who sacked the Ducati imposed/controlled MM electronics engineers as they are more of B team level, the A team working full out on the (fruitless?) GP effort.

it is worrying that Ducati is perhaps spreading it's efforts to thinly to do 1 series well. If it turns out that way, they'll be ridiculed in 2 series.

And that for a company that has all of its recent history in SBK...
 
Dont be so hard on the Pani. :eek:

BMW has been in constant WSBK development for how may years girls? since 2009. Kawasaki ZX10 since 2008 and the all too fast and very unreliable Aprilia since 2009. :rolleyes:
If the dates are wrong they won't be out by much.

The unfair restrictions placed on the Ducati don't help, the restrictions should be based on horse power not cubic inches as it currently is. :mad:

Ducati is not the most successful brand in WSBK for no reason, just wait till the season is mid way before you make harsh judgements. :cool:

Have faith brethren. :D
 
Ok I'm about to be tied to a tree and set on fire so here it goes:
Ducati has a cc advantage period
No the bike is not set to run well with the handicap it has but it's a choice
They don't run a twin in motogp because they would still be limited to the cc cap the same as everyone else (heck they limit it to 4 cylinders so no more hora v5)
When it was advantageous to run a twin in wsbk you saw more of them lined up with the ducati the RSV1000r, the TL1000r, the RC51 but these days all 3 of those companies run a 4 in one way or another.
To complain it should be based off hp someone else will say it should be based off torq
If we force all the bikes to be equal what do we do when someone shows up with an air cooled single and expects everyone else to acomidate them so they can be competitive.
No I don't think the rules benifit the twins right now and most of the 1000 4s arnt even at the 81mm bore that they have been allowed reach (something not allowed when ducati ran the 999) so when ducati made a bigger bike then forced wsbk to accept the bike obviously there would be rules.
No matter what it's never fair. Let the manufactures build to the rules it breeds better bikes for us.
When's the sat time you saw cars as evenly matched as superbikes are?
 
I have rope, cable ties and fuel ready. I'm just looking for the right tree. :D

A four cylinder will always be able to produce more power so why give the Ducati the air restriction? Thats right because it's been so successful in the past.

Restrictions only started with its dominance. Remember the extra weight they had to carry last year!

Two cylinders is not an advantage over four that's why the extra cc is allowed so cut the air restrictions.

IMHO

By the way they don't run a twin in moto gp because they don't produce enough power to compete with a four at the same cc!
 
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By the way they don't run a twin in moto gp because they don't produce enough power to compete with a four at the same cc!

Just zipped up my fire suit and pulled the sock over my head :)
I know that's why they don't... So maybe they should dare do what Honda Suzuki and Aprilia did...
On the flip side I'd like to see more twins on the grid mixing it up (rc8 or even the ebr if they could ever get it competitive) heck maybe a triple?
But teams have got to build to the rules or were gonna have someone show up with a HD bagger pissed that everyone else gets rear sets, clip ons, and liquid cooling while they race around with ape hangers and 103ci monsters
 
I frankly don't want to see a field of cookie cutter bikes on the grid, or nearly so, which is what you'd have if SBK didn't have some equivalency rules allowing twins to run heads-up with 4's. It's a given that if unlimited other than requiring equal CC, no one would run twins, and maybe not 4's either. Honda seemed to settle on V5's for a bit in MotoGP and dominated (even with some weight penalty), until the rules changed.

Performance balancing to allow different engine configs in the same class is common in many forms of racing, particularly 4-wheeled, but it's always going to have to be somewhat dynamic if you want the racing to be close. Ducati had a bit of an advantage a few years back and dominated, then got slapped pretty hard last year with restrictions and struggled. So some of those came off for this season, but probably not quite enough. If they're consistently 15+kph down on speed in the straights this year they'll probably get some additional relief on the intake restrictors, and the chassis work they will have done in the meantime will pay dividends if they get some more beans on the top end.
 
I couldn't agree more about a diverse grid making for great racing I wasn't arguing against it honest. Spec racing is great but lacks character. Heck I even enjoy watching how each bike runs different lines some push wide wile others can slice inside its what makes Superbike so great. I was just being a d bag and saying if we bitch about the rules being unfavorable there's always a solution.
A Honda V4 would be a nice touch maybe ktm joins the grid along with mv Agusta and triumph? Yamaha starts making a triple we've heard whispers about? Could be an interesting few years and the ducati gets developed, look what the aprilia and BMW boys have done with that bike since it was released, heck the new zx10r seems to have a stomper motor at times... Just wait and watch what ducati does, and you know they will destroy someone on some of the more technical tighter tracks.
 
I have rope, cable ties and fuel ready. I'm just looking for the right tree. :D

A four cylinder will always be able to produce more power so why give the Ducati the air restriction? Thats right because it's been so successful in the past.

Restrictions only started with its dominance. Remember the extra weight they had to carry last year!

Two cylinders is not an advantage over four that's why the extra cc is allowed so cut the air restrictions.

IMHO

By the way they don't run a twin in moto gp because they don't produce enough power to compete with a four at the same cc!

The 50mm restrictors have been in place since day one on the 1098R. It was a provision added in 2008 to allow the 1200 twins to run. The weight was in response to domination.
 
Ducati dominance started long before the 1098 and to be clear the 6kg weight was added at the same time as the 50mm restrictors.

Ironically in part due to Francis Batta the Alstare Suzuki team boss and his threat to leave WSBK if Ducati gained an unfair advantage with the rule change that allowed the increase in capacity. :rolleyes:

If only Francis realised he would come back to Ducati again years after Suzuki.

Dominance started in 1988 with the 851, ALL HAIL; and continued with the 916 - 996 - 998 - etc etc etc. :D

Originally WSBK was 750cc fours and 1000cc twins, therefore we are 50cc down with intake restrictors! Not fair! :p

What about Aprilia? V4 what intake or weight restrictions? :confused:
 
The weight requirements have changes almost every year since '08 but no changes to the restrictors.

'08: 4's 162kg; twins 168kg
Mid season '10: twins dropped to 165kg
'11: both at 165kg
'12: twins at 171kg
'13: both back to 165kg

The air restrictors kill me...in '03 the 4's were limited at 32.5 so twins could compete. Then they give twins 200cc extra and restrict them to 50 so the 4's can compete.

Rider skill has a lot to do with it too, or did they forget that part of the equation?
 
Dont be so hard on the Pani. :eek:

BMW has been in constant WSBK development for how may years girls? since 2009. Kawasaki ZX10 since 2008 and the all too fast and very unreliable Aprilia since 2009. :rolleyes:
If the dates are wrong they won't be out by much.

The unfair restrictions placed on the Ducati don't help, the restrictions should be based on horse power not cubic inches as it currently is. :mad:

Ducati is not the most successful brand in WSBK for no reason, just wait till the season is mid way before you make harsh judgements. :cool:

Have faith brethren. :D

agree on this.

And let us not forget that Checa scored a Pole in Philipp Island a month ago. Ducati has to sort out this all new bike. it takes time.
 
2014 the rules will change yet again, to be more in line with SuperStock, in that the bikes must only use technology that they are brought to the road with etc.

KTM, MV, Triumph are watching, and may enter under the new rules, so would Yamaha again. With their rumoured triple.

Don't kid yourselves, the Aprilia is very special indeed and is basically a MotoGP CRT bike as is the BMW and in testing has been lapping faster than them. The Kawaskai is nothing like the road bike, listen to it running on 3 cylinders in the corners, and the Honda just put the full monty Honda MOTOGP electronics package on, the road version has none.

These bikes now have GPS based software that changes the engine and TC etc depending on where they are on the circuit.

Whatever you say about Ducati, you can actually buy an RS version, there is no way in hell you can buy Laverty' s Aprillia, Marco's BMW, Sykes' Kawi or Rea's Honda.

It will take time with Ducati's new bike, but they will get there. The rules allow for 1200 twins so they should be unrestricted or not allow them at all, but this constant fiddling to keep them sort of level must be a nightmare to manage.
 
Ok I'm about to be tied to a tree and set on fire so here it goes:
Ducati has a cc advantage period
No the bike is not set to run well with the handicap it has but it's a choice
They don't run a twin in motogp because they would still be limited to the cc cap the same as everyone else (heck they limit it to 4 cylinders so no more hora v5)
When it was advantageous to run a twin in wsbk you saw more of them lined up with the ducati the RSV1000r, the TL1000r, the RC51 but these days all 3 of those companies run a 4 in one way or another.
To complain it should be based off hp someone else will say it should be based off torq
If we force all the bikes to be equal what do we do when someone shows up with an air cooled single and expects everyone else to acomidate them so they can be competitive.
No I don't think the rules benifit the twins right now and most of the 1000 4s arnt even at the 81mm bore that they have been allowed reach (something not allowed when ducati ran the 999) so when ducati made a bigger bike then forced wsbk to accept the bike obviously there would be rules.
No matter what it's never fair. Let the manufactures build to the rules it breeds better bikes for us.
When's the sat time you saw cars as evenly matched as superbikes are?
The goal of any racing series is to make the playing field as level as possible for all competators. To answer your question "When's the [last] time you saw cars as evenly matched as superbikes are?" Every weekend the Grand Am Series races. In the GT class M3's, Camaro's and Rustangs are as competitive (if not more) than 911's, 458 Italias and DBS Aston Martins. My point is, the Pani should have been allowed to run unrestricted until it was deemed necessary to impose restrictions. I was under the impression before the season started that would be the case. I guess I was wrong. :(
 
The goal of any racing series is to make the playing field as level as possible for all competators. To answer your question "When's the [last] time you saw cars as evenly matched as superbikes are?" Every weekend the Grand Am Series races. In the GT class M3's, Camaro's and Rustangs are as competitive (if not more) than 911's, 458 Italias and DBS Aston Martins. My point is, the Pani should have been allowed to run unrestricted until it was deemed necessary to impose restrictions. I was under the impression before the season started that would be the case. I guess I was wrong. :(
Sorry I was referring to how motorcycles build bikes to a specific cc and other restrictions so they conform to a racing series, cars especially the ones you mention use balancing to "even" things up while the mustang and Camaro and friends all try and shake it down after the fact, natural aspirated supercharges who knows I'm not getting specific :)
All I meant was its amazing how different bikes can be and yet be so evenly matched as "stock"
And yes I'm sure when the organization sees the 1199 suffering to be competitive some of the restrictions may be reduced, as long as it creates good racing.
They probably kept some in place held over from the 1198 as that bike was very good and the 1199 was only supposed to be better so they might have feared the dominance the 1199 could display if left un checked by the rules.
 


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