R race seat <> DP race seat

youngR · Apr 1, 2013

apeluv said:
Anyone know why my upper back hurts when using the comfort seat but only my ... hurts when using the stock seat. I understand the ... hurting from the stock seat but not why my upper back (not wrist)would hurt using the comfort seat.

Not sure. Do you have/had back problems?
Not to intrude but do you work out?

bronch · Apr 1, 2013

apeluv said:
Anyone know why my upper back hurts when using the comfort seat but only my ... hurts when using the stock seat. I understand the ... hurting from the stock seat but not why my upper back (not wrist)would hurt using the comfort seat.

The same thing happens to me with the DP race seat. I think it pushes your COG too far forward and there's no subframe for your legs to hold on to. I my ride height lowered by about 8mm and it made a big difference.

zvez · Apr 1, 2013

Just a guess, but since the comfort seat is taller, it probably causes you to bend your back more. Perhaps increasing stress on your back.

apeluv said:
Anyone know why my upper back hurts when using the comfort seat but only my ... hurts when using the stock seat. I understand the ... hurting from the stock seat but not why my upper back (not wrist)would hurt using the comfort seat.

apeluv · Apr 1, 2013

youngR said:
Not sure. Do you have/had back problems?
Not to intrude but do you work out?

Yes.. I'm ripped

Seriously.. Yes I do work out. Never had back problems.

apeluv · Apr 1, 2013

zvez said:
Just a guess, but since the comfort seat is taller, it probably causes you to bend your back more. Perhaps increasing stress on your back.

Not a doctor but I'd almost think I'd have pain in my lower back if that were the case. Again not a doctor so you could be right. The comfort seat just feels soooo much better. Still debating on what pain I want to deal with while riding.

youngR · Apr 1, 2013

apeluv said:
Yes.. I'm ripped Seriously.. Yes I do work out. Never had back problems.

Then it has to be the seat. Maybe you are taller guy and have to bend down to more.

Only reason I asked about working is because most people don't have a strong core.

Steve B · Apr 1, 2013

bronch said:
The same thing happens to me with the DP race seat. I think it pushes your COG too far forward and there's no subframe for your legs to hold on to. I my ride height lowered by about 8mm and it made a big difference.

^Winner - all that's happening is the taller seat is rotating your head and torso forward and down, putting more weight on your hands. Since the bars aren't going anywhere, that means more force being sent back up into your upper back, shoulder blades, neck, etc.

Ideally, when you're in the riding position you should be able to let go of the bars and not have to use your core muscles or your legs to hold yourself up. If you feel like you're falling forward unless you brace yourself with the bars then your position is hosed and needs some tweaking. Imagine a side-on picture of yourself on the bike, then erase the bike. Your body has it's own CoG, and you need to be balanced while you're riding. If you're not, you'll be uncomfortable and won't be able to ride naturally. So think about how to move your CoG back (not necessarily relative to the bike, but just your body).

Typically, the lower your hands are relative to your seat, the more your butt has to be back relative your feet, meaning butt goes back or feet go forward. Stand sideways in front of a full-length mirror and put your arms out and bend your torso over to mimic the riding position. You'll see that you automatically move your butt back to stay balanced, and that's the thing you're trying to achieve on the bike. The rider triangle (with its sides from the bars to the seat, the seat to the pegs, and the pegs to the bars) that works for you may or may not work for someone else, depending on their particular dimensions, so you have to "solve" your own triangle. But the goal is to have one that's not off-balance and unstable, requiring force to hold itself in place.

apeluv · Apr 1, 2013

Steve B said:
^Winner - all that's happening is the taller seat is rotating your head and torso forward and down, putting more weight on your hands. Since the bars aren't going anywhere, that means more force being sent back up into your upper back, shoulder blades, neck, etc.

Ideally, when you're in the riding position you should be able to let go of the bars and not have to use your core muscles or your legs to hold yourself up. If you feel like you're falling forward unless you brace yourself with the bars then your position is hosed and needs some tweaking. Imagine a side-on picture of yourself on the bike, then erase the bike. Your body has it's own CoG, and you need to be balanced while you're riding. If you're not, you'll be uncomfortable and won't be able to ride naturally. So think about how to move your CoG back (not necessarily relative to the bike, but just your body).

Typically, the lower your hands are relative to your seat, the more your butt has to be back relative your feet, meaning butt goes back or feet go forward. Stand sideways in front of a full-length mirror and put your arms out and bend your torso over to mimic the riding position. You'll see that you automatically move your butt back to stay balanced, and that's the thing you're trying to achieve on the bike. The rider triangle (with its sides from the bars to the seat, the seat to the pegs, and the pegs to the bars) that works for you may or may not work for someone else, depending on their particular dimensions, so you have to "solve" your own triangle. But the goal is to have one that's not off-balance and unstable, requiring force to hold itself in place.

You're an F'ing genius. The stock seat feels so much better, back wise. So I took it back to the upholster to have some cushion added. (Not as much cushion as the comfort seat)

WAfatboy · Apr 1, 2013

This looks like a solution for those of us that want a lower seat but the gripper material so thanks for posting.

Steve B · Apr 1, 2013

apeluv said:
You're an F'ing genius. The stock seat feels so much better, back wise. So I took it back to the upholster to have some cushion added. (Not as much cushion as the comfort seat)

No smarty here; was just a competitive cyclist for over 20 years. In that sport, it's common knowledge that no matter how great a bike you have, unless you get your ergos dialed from the outset, you (and embarrassingly, your new $10K, electronic shifting carbon fiber wonderbike) are going.to.suck.

The power transmission aspects of position don't apply here of course; thankfully, my Pani makes much more power than me (even if it won't run on beer & twinkies). However, the balance and handling aspects most definitely transfer. Here, just like there, we're supporting ourselves with our hands, feet, and butt, and where those contact points are relative to each other, and how we spread our weight between them will either have us centered and balanced or not. For a more moto-relevant, if non-technical view, have a look:

Motorcycle Ergonomics with Blake Young and Chuck Warren of Yoshimura Suzuki - YouTube

Note that when they're talking about comfort, what they're really talking about is feeling balanced and natural, not cozy and coddled - an athletic comfort. What you find is that your position, here just as in cycling, is unique to YOU, and not so much the bike. Reach to the bars from the saddle, their height, width and angle, relative footpeg placement, etc. is something that once you figure out, should be memorized and basically transferred from bike to bike. Teams will keep specs for riders and transfer them to new bikes, and experienced riders who change teams will know what they want their new bike set up like.

At the sharp end, once race teams have that triangle down for the rider, they'll manipulate the whole thing around to affect the bike's loaded center of mass to get the handling optimized; changing tank shapes, subframe positions, etc. I remember when Elena Myers demo'ed the Rizla MotoGP Suzuki a few years back, she was freaking that they were asking her which tank shape and subframe she wanted, just the same as with her bars and rearsets. This is exactly like cycling, where whole frames are either chosen or custom-built to get the overall loaded weight distribution and center of mass vs wheelbase desired for optimum handling. Very important there, where the whole bike weighs less than three gallons of gas.

That's not super critical for street or trackday motorbike riders of course, where we are mostly just looking for a natural feel and lack of problems, but where you sit on the bike will definitely affect how it handles. For example, taller, heavier riders will get much more weight shift than smaller, lighter ones, etc.

Bottom line is that spending some time getting yourself balanced and "comfortable" on the bike will pay easily as much or more dividend as any suspension work you might do.

zvez · Apr 2, 2013

that's suspension guru Dave Moss, he has an online show called on the throttle which is superb!

Motorcycle Howto Video Downloads, DVDs, Roadracing Coverage, and Video Production

Steve B said:
No smarty here; was just a competitive cyclist for over 20 years. In that sport, it's common knowledge that no matter how great a bike you have, unless you get your ergos dialed from the outset, you (and embarrassingly, your new $10K, electronic shifting carbon fiber wonderbike) are going.to.suck.

The power transmission aspects of position don't apply here of course; thankfully, my Pani makes much more power than me (even if it won't run on beer & twinkies). However, the balance and handling aspects most definitely transfer. Here, just like there, we're supporting ourselves with our hands, feet, and butt, and where those contact points are relative to each other, and how we spread our weight between them will either have us centered and balanced or not. For a more moto-relevant, if non-technical view, have a look:

Motorcycle Ergonomics with Blake Young and Chuck Warren of Yoshimura Suzuki - YouTube

Note that when they're talking about comfort, what they're really talking about is feeling balanced and natural, not cozy and coddled - an athletic comfort. What you find is that your position, here just as in cycling, is unique to YOU, and not so much the bike. Reach to the bars from the saddle, their height, width and angle, relative footpeg placement, etc. is something that once you figure out, should be memorized and basically transferred from bike to bike. Teams will keep specs for riders and transfer them to new bikes, and experienced riders who change teams will know what they want their new bike set up like.

At the sharp end, once race teams have that triangle down for the rider, they'll manipulate the whole thing around to affect the bike's loaded center of mass to get the handling optimized; changing tank shapes, subframe positions, etc. I remember when Elena Myers demo'ed the Rizla MotoGP Suzuki a few years back, she was freaking that they were asking her which tank shape and subframe she wanted, just the same as with her bars and rearsets. This is exactly like cycling, where whole frames are either chosen or custom-built to get the overall loaded weight distribution and center of mass vs wheelbase desired for optimum handling. Very important there, where the whole bike weighs less than three gallons of gas.

That's not super critical for street or trackday motorbike riders of course, where we are mostly just looking for a natural feel and lack of problems, but where you sit on the bike will definitely affect how it handles. For example, taller, heavier riders will get much more weight shift than smaller, lighter ones, etc.

Bottom line is that spending some time getting yourself balanced and "comfortable" on the bike will pay easily as much or more dividend as any suspension work you might do.

Panigale1199R · Apr 3, 2013

Kope is correct. I had the DP race seat installed on my R as I liked it on my S. Much more comfort and with my 190cm no problem. Will keep the R seat.

thedak · Apr 3, 2013

It really is a good inch thicker at the tank...

We will see if I like this thing.

On my tippy toes and it feels like I'm sitting over the tank.

R race seat <> DP race seat

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