Steering difficult??

Has anyone else had this experience:

When making turns, especially long ones like a freeway entrance or exit ramp, it gets difficult to hold your push on the bars in the turn?? Like, the bike is trying hard to up-right it self, it's pushing back against your hand.

Maybe I'm not giving it enough gas? I'm not sure, I've never experienced this before. My Daytona does not give this level of pressure back against my hand when making similar turns. I wonder if it's because of the bigger rear tire, or if the bike needs to be moving quicker to stay leaned that much?

I don't know!!! Anyone else?

suspension setup and tire pressure?

Longer wheelbase naturally makes the vehicle want to go straight, could also refer to as stability.

Maybe it's your personal reference against the Daytona. I feel the Pani is actually quite easy to lean over, like a 600cc SS.

I do not experience that. Lots of things could cause that including body position.

tstephenson said:

suspension setup and tire pressure?

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suspension is default for race, and tire pressure is stock as well.

jyli19 said:

Longer wheelbase naturally makes the vehicle want to go straight, could also refer to as stability.

Maybe it's your personal reference against the Daytona. I feel the Pani is actually quite easy to lean over, like a 600cc SS.

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Thing is, most of the time I think it's easy to lean over as well. At normal road speeds I can dip it back and forth with ease! It seems like the only times it really pushes back like this is during slow turning (i.e. neighborhood streets) and slower on and off ramps.

lardawge said:

I do not experience that. Lots of things could cause that including body position.

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Body position is generally quite good. Supporting myself with my core and legs on the bike, not relying on the bars for stability/support.

if you are feeling this at really slow speeds it may just be the transition between counter steer and steering.

Not sure the exact speed (15 -20MPH) but the bike will transition from counter steering (pushing on the bar opposite direction of turn) to regular steering where you steer the bars into the turn. This will make the bike feel very heavy to turn using the bars.

This is only at very low sppe though

Hmmmmm. Let's see here. Try the following- Find your turn-in point, gas off, steering input (bike is now in turn heading for apex) slowly and continuously crack the throttle on to get the weight to transfer 60/40 rear bias immediately after the bike is turned, next hit your mid-point (rolling on gas)- then find your exit point out of the turn. All the while (slowly applying gas).

Motorcycle Riding School - California Superbike School

Keith Code

George Villar said:

Hmmmmm. Let's see here. Try the following- Find your turn-in point, gas off, steering input (bike is now in turn heading for apex) slowly and continuously crack the throttle on to get the weight to transfer 60/40 rear bias immediately after the bike is turned, next hit your mid-point (rolling on gas)- then find your exit point out of the turn. All the while (slowly applying gas).

Motorcycle Riding School - California Superbike School

Keith Code

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Yeah, I'm familiar with Keith Code's instruction for corner entry and exit, but I don't really know if it applies to neighborhood street turns and speeds lol. Maybe not even in the on and off ramps on the highway since I'm just cruising and just want to hold a turn, although that may be the place to experiment with input, because that was exactly my thought: crack the throttle open slowly and consistently. I think it may have helped a bit.

The bike will only turn if UNSTABLE, as you know. Then it will hold its line only if STABLE = on the gas. Ever so very slowly on the gas, but on the gas. I do this for street riding too, not just the track (except the gas is on more fully). This also means that you may not be looking far enough ahead to the next POINT.

Ride safe!

What's your front tire pressure PSI? That is a classic description of what it feels like with low air pressure in the front.

jarelj said:

What's your front tire pressure PSI? That is a classic description of what it feels like with low air pressure in the front.

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+1...and giving it gas would cause it to stand up more, not less.

Applying throttle allows the bike to become stable AFTER steering change.….. I agree with you that the bike would stand up IF THE THROTTLE WAS ON DURING THE STEERING INPUT. Otherwise I disagree.

why would the bike stand up, granted you're only supposed to keep a neutral or closed throttle while in a turn until the bike comes up, but adding power, I don't see how that would bring the bike up, it would seem the opposite to me in that lean angle would increase? Or did I completely misunderstand Code School?

George Villar said:

Applying throttle allows the bike to become stable AFTER steering change."¦.. I agree with you that the bike would stand up IF THE THROTTLE WAS ON DURING THE STEERING INPUT. Otherwise I disagree.

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Front end geometry. Rake and Trail is your answer I'd say if you're sure the tire pressure's good and nothing's binding in the steering head or damper. The Panigale has around 12-15mm more trail than a Daytona (depending on year) and a degree slacker head angle. I have a Daytona too, and the Panigale steers a lot slower. The more trail a bike has, the more self-steering it will do with lean. That's why higher trail gives more feel at the front; you can feel smaller changes in lean and slip angle due to the higher feedback coming through the bars. It also helps finishing corners as the front's "helping" you pick the line.

Take any bike at rest and lean it side to side. Notice the front end turning? That's trail at work. More trail, more turn, which you feel while riding as more bar pressure. A good experiment is to try it with a bicycle if you have one handy. Keep leaning it back and forth as you lift the rear end up gradually, and you'll notice the self-steering becoming less and less, until at some point it goes away and actually reverses with the front turning right when you lean it left. That's the point at which you've reached negative trail.

A stock Daytona turns in quick as hell, but feels like you can steer it right into the ground, and the arc you choose is yours alone - the bike's not having much to say. The Panigale has better high-speed geometry, but it's a bit of a truck at the front next to a Daytona. Just a different feel really, you live on the front end with a Daytona and you ride the Panigale more in the middle or rear. Could be wrong, but I suspect that may just be a Ducati trait.

Great info Steve B!
Not allot of people think about the difference in geometry between bikes, manufacturers techniques and suspension difference's, gotta love this forum and the many knowledgeable members

very nice post

Steve B said:

Front end geometry. Rake and Trail is your answer I'd say if you're sure the tire pressure's good and nothing's binding in the steering head or damper. The Panigale has around 12-15mm more trail than a Daytona (depending on year) and a degree slacker head angle. I have a Daytona too, and the Panigale steers a lot slower. The more trail a bike has, the more self-steering it will do with lean. That's why higher trail gives more feel at the front; you can feel smaller changes in lean and slip angle due to the higher feedback coming through the bars. It also helps finishing corners as the front's "helping" you pick the line.

Take any bike at rest and lean it side to side. Notice the front end turning? That's trail at work. More trail, more turn, which you feel while riding as more bar pressure. A good experiment is to try it with a bicycle if you have one handy. Keep leaning it back and forth as you lift the rear end up gradually, and you'll notice the self-steering becoming less and less, until at some point it goes away and actually reverses with the front turning right when you lean it left. That's the point at which you've reached negative trail.

A stock Daytona turns in quick as hell, but feels like you can steer it right into the ground, and the arc you choose is yours alone - the bike's not having much to say. The Panigale has better high-speed geometry, but it's a bit of a truck at the front next to a Daytona. Just a different feel really, you live on the front end with a Daytona and your ride the Panigale more in the middle or rear. Could be wrong, but I suspect that may just be a Ducati trait.

Click to expand...

Steve B said:

Front end geometry. Rake and Trail is your answer I'd say if you're sure the tire pressure's good and nothing's binding in the steering head or damper. The Panigale has around 12-15mm more trail than a Daytona (depending on year) and a degree slacker head angle. I have a Daytona too, and the Panigale steers a lot slower. The more trail a bike has, the more self-steering it will do with lean. That's why higher trail gives more feel at the front; you can feel smaller changes in lean and slip angle due to the higher feedback coming through the bars. It also helps finishing corners as the front's "helping" you pick the line.

Take any bike at rest and lean it side to side. Notice the front end turning? That's trail at work. More trail, more turn, which you feel while riding as more bar pressure. A good experiment is to try it with a bicycle if you have one handy. Keep leaning it back and forth as you lift the rear end up gradually, and you'll notice the self-steering becoming less and less, until at some point it goes away and actually reverses with the front turning right when you lean it left. That's the point at which you've reached negative trail.

A stock Daytona turns in quick as hell, but feels like you can steer it right into the ground, and the arc you choose is yours alone - the bike's not having much to say. The Panigale has better high-speed geometry, but it's a bit of a truck at the front next to a Daytona. Just a different feel really, you live on the front end with a Daytona and your ride the Panigale more in the middle or rear. Could be wrong, but I suspect that may just be a Ducati trait.

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what this guy said

Mmm have you checked the steering damper...? Just a thought although even turned up to ten I doubt would have an effect like this...

Steve B said:

Front end geometry. Rake and Trail is your answer I'd say if you're sure the tire pressure's good and nothing's binding in the steering head or damper. The Panigale has around 12-15mm more trail than a Daytona (depending on year) and a degree slacker head angle. I have a Daytona too, and the Panigale steers a lot slower. The more trail a bike has, the more self-steering it will do with lean. That's why higher trail gives more feel at the front; you can feel smaller changes in lean and slip angle due to the higher feedback coming through the bars. It also helps finishing corners as the front's "helping" you pick the line.

Take any bike at rest and lean it side to side. Notice the front end turning? That's trail at work. More trail, more turn, which you feel while riding as more bar pressure. A good experiment is to try it with a bicycle if you have one handy. Keep leaning it back and forth as you lift the rear end up gradually, and you'll notice the self-steering becoming less and less, until at some point it goes away and actually reverses with the front turning right when you lean it left. That's the point at which you've reached negative trail.

A stock Daytona turns in quick as hell, but feels like you can steer it right into the ground, and the arc you choose is yours alone - the bike's not having much to say. The Panigale has better high-speed geometry, but it's a bit of a truck at the front next to a Daytona. Just a different feel really, you live on the front end with a Daytona and you ride the Panigale more in the middle or rear. Could be wrong, but I suspect that may just be a Ducati trait.

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Fantastic post! Glad someone else has the experience on the Daytona as well. I suppose I was just really hoping the Panigale would steer as awesome as the Daytona oh well, guess I'll just have to get used to it! The geometry thing makes a lot of sense. I'll have to do some more experimenting.

mat1529 said:

Mmm have you checked the steering damper...? Just a thought although even turned up to ten I doubt would have an effect like this...

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I was curious about my steering damper. The other day when I got off my bike, I started click it one direction, and counted 9 or 10 clicks. Then I went back the same amount, and started in the opposite direction and counted about 9 or 10 clicks as well, so it seems it's directly in the center. Not sure how much difference that makes, but its felt pretty good so far. Not as much headshake when hitting bumps during high speed or accceleration. At least not like my Daytona with a stock damper

MacaveliMC said:

Fantastic post! Glad someone else has the experience on the Daytona as well. I suppose I was just really hoping the Panigale would steer as awesome as the Daytona oh well, guess I'll just have to get used to it! The geometry thing makes a lot of sense. I'll have to do some more experimenting.

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Thx! Glad it was of use. As for steering awesomeness, rest assured the Daytona Jason DiSalvo's been putting on pole race after race in AMA DSB has trail numbers closer to the Panigale's than the stocker. Had a chat with him at Road Atlanta about that very thing. Pretty much anyone racing Daytonas, if they're not constrained by rules or budget is running lower-offset triples to get more trail, and if they're not then they're pushing the forks out as far as they can. Just like everyone with XXX8 Ducatis was, which was why everyone was so happy the Pani came with 30mm offset triples; no more need to drop a grand on your new bike to get it to handle right.

Bike geometry's always a compromise. If you optimize it to be awesome on it's side at 120mph, it's not going to feel awesome rolling around a slow corner on the street and vice versa. Daytona's will dive into a corner like little else out there, but if you climb on one after riding something with more mainstream trail numbers it feels downright spooky at high lean angles until you learn to trust it. Don't know about yours, but anytime I take my hands off the bars on my Daytona at speed the front just quivers. Never gets out of hand, but settled, it's not...

Sometimes I feel like I might like a steeper, closer front end on the Pani since I'm accustomed to more front-oriented bikes. But really, it handles very nicely as is no real complaining there. The Pani gets it's agility from low, very centralized mass instead of more aggressive geometry. Still can't help looking at at that frame insert the steerer goes through and wondering when someone's gonna start messing with front geometry; looks pretty easy for anyone with a good CNC mill.

Sorry, mind wandering; wannabe product designer taking over! Back on point, just don't lean it so much in slow turns!