Suspension and feel

Gizmo,

The guys ur using are ok, they know their stuff, I used to use Bains Ducati @ silverstone when i was racing my ducati's in the UK, a long time ago now but Rob knows his stuff... Just make sure ur giving him honest facts about ur riding needs and capability

Cheers

Gizmo1199 said:

Hi Bowdy69

I recently purchased a ttx MkII shock for my base model. I'm not a racer but enjoy doing a few track days a year. My question is I note you say the spring is too heavy on the s, I weigh 175lbs and ordered one from Dan Kyle and they recomended the 01092-31/95 one, do you think that will be to heavy for me ?. Appreciate any advice you can offer as I 'm just a track day rider and not an experienced racer. Pro Twins (uk) are going to fit the shock and set the bike up for me, Rob Jackson @ Pro Twins set my last bikes up and they were fine for me. Any advice?.

Thanks AC

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Cheers Bowdy,

Ah so youv'e experienced knockhill!, bumpy - did you ride East Fortune

The roads up north are sublime though - only another few months to go before they are rideable again.

What's your thoughts on Penske? heard a lot of really positive reports on them. Local ducati guy uses them and raves about them - really professional aftermarket service/assistance too.

Hoots.

They are what I currently have on my pani, had a TTX on order and needed to fit a shock to test with, had a pair of Penske shocks in the R1 race kit, see attached photo, was only 5 seconds of WSBK pace o. Monday lasts week at Philip island testing... On a pro-stock bike... Not bad for an old fella

See attached for my shock... The new Penske is better still, I rebuilt mine for the duke and had the top machined to fit but works a treat..

Bowdy

Bowdy69 said:

Gizmo,

The guys ur using are ok, they know their stuff, I used to use Bains Ducati @ silverstone when i was racing my ducati's in the UK, a long time ago now but Rob knows his stuff... Just make sure ur giving him honest facts about ur riding needs and capability

Cheers

Click to expand...

Thanks Bowdy

I have no doubts about Rob and the guys at pro twins as they have always been great. I was just a bit worried about the spring as I didn't purchase the shock from them, and I'm about 89kg with kit on , and noticed that you said best to go down to 8.5 spring. Dropped the bike off friday and discussed with Rob who is going to sort it. The suspension / feel write up was great, even I could understand what you were saying. Thanks for the reply and good luck with the season. AC

Bowdy,

Thanks for the thread - makes interesting reading, especially as I have spent a lot of time on mine now trying to get it setup. There was a lot of forum chat about it last year in June/July when I got mine and started asking for other peoples notes to compare to - as mine was very unstable from day-1.

The thread was started by Austin Racing - "handling big issues", but I had a already started a similar one in the UK on ducatiforum.co.uk called suspension setup and handling as soon as I got the bike:

Handling and Suspension Setup

To put it in context, it was immediately obvious out of the box that for me (at 66kgs) it was horribly oversprung, but also badly setup. I found that immediately I needed to:
1. change springs to a 9.5
2. change the rear to a 75Nm
3. lift the oil height to a 190mm gap (from about 250mm stock!)
4. lower the forks by 5mm
5. lower the rear ride height by 18mm

Both 4 and 5 were designed to get the rear down (it was sky high) and the CoG down (was very unstable). Turned out when I compared my setup to the BSB bikes and Superbikes in testing (talking to their mechs) mine was almost identical to their setup! Which was great - but whilst this was a big improvement in handling, it didn't actually make the bike stable.

We are now trying experimenting with the rear linkage, both F to P and potentially changing the linkages altogether. Have had quite a bit of work done on mine now again with a race team here in the UK, so going to do a back to back test in a couple of weeks when the weather picks up. Am hoping for a big improvement. To date, whilst I want to like the bike, I find that:

1. It turns in so easily and quickly that even moving your body in prep for a corner unsettles the bike. So you need to be super careful with your inputs (hard on crappy surfaced roads).....

2. It is super accurate up to the apex trailing front brake or rolling in - lovely - but the minute you touch the throttle it goes to sh!t, the bike unsettles immediately (so I agree with your point entirely on the quick rebound on the front). Have tried to dampen this down by comp/rebound settings, but it doesn't improve things significantly. There is clearly another problem here as well. Not helped by the choppy first touch throttle either. Easier no doubt on track where revs are held up far higher in the range.

3. Bike is unstable in a straight line. Shimmies at speed. Feels like you have to be ultra sensitive to not destabilise the bike or it will have you off. Not relaxing at all. You have to just tell yourself it will be OK, but it is unnerving. Bike much better if on decent amount of throttle (pulling, weight moved/moving onto back wheel), or no throttle (engine dragging, weight on front wheel, or on brakes). Desperately unstable on part or neutral throttle.

4. Little to no feel for the tarmac. Same on OEM pirellis and on Dunlp NTecs (my control tyre on all my bikes).

I know more than a few people who have found the same as me so far, whereas others love the bike. I want to love mine, but so far it's not where I want it to be by a long way.

Any clues? To put it on context I also have an 848 and a desmosedici both of which I ride on road and track. Desmo was tricky to setup too, but was fantastic once done. Only works between 70 and 170mph though!

On mine I dropped the rear spring rate, ran the shock shorter to drop the rear end and since i have the racing seat i cut about 1/2 inch of foam out of the seat so I sit lower.

At the front I added additional oil because the factory level was crazy low. I also found I had to add rebound. The factory settings just let the front end rebound too fast. It would just unsettle the bike.

I have not changed the front springs yet, the new ones are sitting in a box in my garage. (I'm a slacker) I think its still sprung a bit heavy for me.

I had the same issue you are describing about the bike being unsettled when you open the throttle. I changed from 195HI to 195LOW and it has made a very big difference. I can get on the throttle earlier while the bike is cranked over on the edge of the tire without it getting twitchy.

Cham,

Plenty to consider, first question, have you had the valving in the forks changed? The bike is really touchy... I've used heavier oil and in race kit am 93kg, kept stock valving in the S but put together my own valving and shim stack on the base forks...

The key is getting the forks to maintain mid stroke movement and not rebound so quickly...

I found that putting to much ride hight in to keep the bike loaded i the front causes the instability you mention, found the maximum fork pertrusion is 3mm, more makes the bike feel loose... One thing I have done is make sure the wheel base is as long as possible...

I've had the electronic adjustment removed from my ohlins kit... Can't change the linkage because the ASBK series will not allow that in the class I run...

I'd almost suggest having a shock for track use and one for road use if ur mixing it up that much... What I've found is the road settings I use in my road S are different to the S and base I am racing...

I like my road bike a little softer, using an 8.5 kg rear spring, 8mm increase in ride hight, mainly to take up the increase in wheel base. 3mm fork drop...

7.5 weight oil, same levels as u suggest... Valving to suit...

Be careful not to get too lost, both Sean Emmit and I had some major issues back when we were racing 916 ducati's a long time ago.... Given ur stable I'd imagin u know a bit about set up... Ur talking to people I know and trust...


Get back to a base setting... Have you logged each change and the impact? I have a file I use to track changes, down load track data and differences in my own inputs like weight, new leathers, seat placement, rear set placement. Position on the bike...

What I have found is the bike responds really well to weighting the outside peg taking load off the bars.. Which almost makes me think the bar position is too wide... I'm going to test this in practice before the first round at WSBK Philip island this month...

195 hi to low, isn't that in one of my threads??.

It's good to see others sharing info... We're going to run a live link in to out garage on WSBK weekend, u will all be able to log in and see how we go....

Bowdy,

Thanks for the reply - think you understand where I am coming from based on your comments.

What I am trying to do is establish a solid base setting - which is where I will work from. Sounds like you may have had more success than me so far.

To your points, if your forks have only got 3mm showing, then they are much higher up than mine - which will obviously add stability and wheelbase as you say. The reason I dropped mine was that I was trying to get the CoG lower and see if that helped. I had already dropped the back down by 14mm from stock, so dropped both front and rear another 4mm. I could try putting that back up. The measurement I had was from the top of the wiper seal to the underside of the forks - both me and the two UK race teams were both running the same - 200mm distance. Then, we had the eccentric rear hub max back to give longest possible wheelbase - and then were playing with ride height.

I have a mate who has a Panigale he loves, but he immediately dropped all the DES and had Ohlins 30mm cartridges fitted, and a standard TTX rear. He loves his, but as it's track only it's hard to give it a spin anytime soon (he has fitted the full WSS kit, race electronics etc).

I am told now that the superstock team in the UK (at JHP who look after my kit) have made big strides forwards, and I am now going to try their setup to compare. And yes, I have good notes, so can always go back to base. Just need a decent baseline!

Your comments on the fork valving though make me think I should have a look at changing that, but the instability seems more fundamental to me than damping only. You can usually ride around problems like that, I would just load the front more and see how much difference it makes - but am not progressing. Then winter came frankly, and I gave up. Maybe switching oil viscosity to heavier oil would help as well.

Am going to see what the recommendations are from the boys at JHP and also compare those to Millsport and Motorapido setups, which I have. Then see where we are.

I wish it worked!! I love the bike but am finding it frustrating that I cannot get it to a decent baseline. Even the Desmo can be tamed! This beastie is beating me to date.....

Bowdy69 said:

195 hi to low, isn't that in one of my threads??.

It's good to see others sharing info... We're going to run a live link in to out garage on WSBK weekend, u will all be able to log in and see how we go....

Click to expand...

Yes, we were discussing it in one of your earlier threads. Makes a world of difference. I wish they would release revised throttle map or a tool to let us edit the one for 195HI. Its just too twitchy for me at small throttle angles.

My 2009 R1 had the same issue with A mode but a simple reflash and its super smooth now.

Ride height tool

Are any of you guys using a tool for measuring the rear ride height ?

I feel a bit lost on setting a base for the rear ride height - without a proper tool.

BowHunter,

Ducati make one that you have to measure at the dealers, as there is no chance you want to buy one like that. But in order to compare you really need to use it.

Mine was at 216mm last time I measured it on theirs.

I also measure my forks from base of lower triple to top of the wiper seal on the fork, as that's the only way to compare different forks.

I am trying them at 195mm next with slightly lower rear ride height too. They were at 200mm before but am trying to get CofG down a bit to add some high speed stability.

Anyone else know theirs?

Hey guys, interesting how each of us measure and capture data, I measure from the top triple clamp to the top of the fork cap... Using a vernier gauge or calliper... 3mm more through the forks than stock, the pani is prone to being unsettled at speed by bumps so too steep causes problems...

Hmmm rear ride height, I had the machine on the S and then translated that in to ride height on the base... Up 8mm from stock at the moment... But in the end its been valving and fork springs that have made the step I needed to progress and hold a line... I'm going to measure everything on the weekend and post a base setting, I rode the spare S on the road on Sunday, the problem is without changing the spring I'm running 34mm of riders sag to get the stock spring to a soft enough setting to make the valving work, having to use excessive comp damping to compensate.. But rebound is ok now and it was a half decent ride...

Remember this setting is for PI a fast flowing track that has been re surfaced...

I found that weighting the outside peg when mid corner did 2 things, took my weight off the bars increasing the front end feel and made me sit in the middle of the bike which increased RW traction and feel from the shock.. There is a substantial impact on the rake when the forks unload and the rear compresses...

I am keen to collect some data, I am going to put up a request for spring and measurement data, if a number of people provide the data along with weight I will try to develop a base setting for us all... Not easy based on the differing riding styles..

Pete

So if i'm reading your posts correctly, the Ohlin's on the S can be used effectively, while changing out the rear spring, and the front fork springs & oil, and changing the oil gap in the forks?

Yep, they are set up overly firm for most road riding and need to be softened for compliance

Xbox said:

Thanks for starting this thread Bowdy

I don't know if you remember this infamous test rider, but it looks like his voice was loud enough for Ducati to setup all Panigales specially for him

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mine should be fine then !

Apparantly, no one seems to use or try the progessive linkage when not riding track..


if the track is not your prime goal : shouldn't this be applied before swapping springs and internals?

kope999R said:

Apparantly, no one seems to use or try the progessive linkage when not riding track..

if the track is not your prime goal : shouldn't this be applied before swapping springs and internals?

Click to expand...

Actually, plenty of have gone that route and there are lots of threads pointing at that as a solution. The problem with it is that it's a band-aid for an oversprung shock in most cases, and since the overall motion ratio is the same in either position (same overall total wheel and shock travel), what happens is the rear end squats down a bit and then packs when it hits the stiff part of the linkage curve. That's because while the suspension starts our softer with the link on P, the latter part of the suspension travel gets stiffer than with the link in F - it has to, after all. I tried it for a while, and while the bike did ride smoother over bumps in a straight line, I didn't like what it did to the handling in corners so I put the link back in F. Just need to nail down proper springs and then worry about whether the damping needs more sorting for road use.

FWIW, RaceTech says the stock spring rates on the base model are appropriate for a 160lb/72kg rider, which I'm not sure I agree with since I'm having to run more free sag than I should to get proper loaded sag.

On the money Steve!!! I'm not quite sure of Kobe's view, clearly needs to read the threads from past discussions, I've had a bit of time with both race bikes now and have spent time with tyres, traction control and suspension, like I've said in other threads, I'm using 30 years of racing experience, the IOM, Bathurst, NW200... Countless short circuits... But I'm open to other people's opinions... All manufactures have to sell a road bike with some semblance of compromise... Not everyone is 65kg wet and rides like stoner...

Mr Kobe is a fan of the R, I appreciate it when people are committed to a journey, however for most of us the base or S is a fine package.. Those of us who HAVE to purchase due to rules for racing see the value in the base model... All bikes in the United States of Australia are ABS models so that's a fortunate win for us pour Aussies...

Cheers

Bowdy

as i stated: instead of moaning that the R isn't special enough, we should all rejoyce on what a demon of a bike the 'base is! and i must say i did opt for the R more from a 'indulgence' point of view than from rational point of view...

i'm even contemplating to do a base project next year or so and to go for a Marelli fiddling setup... just for the heck of it...

and racing is a completely different reality as you have to comply... couldn't agree more..

NW 200 - now that is a man's race! dear oh dear! my mind is too small to grasp how you get over the fright !