Has anyone removed their O2 sensors after using a T800 Upmap tune?

[ArcticWhite]

The D184 SR map states:
-Dashboard message "racing pro"
-Exhaust Valve error disabled, it is possible to remove the valve.
-Lambda probe error disabled, it is possible to remove the lambda probes from the motorcycle.

I wanted to confirm the O2 sensors on the bike are not used at any time. It seems weird to me that the upmap would remove closed loop fuelling from the bike.

I want to see far off the fuelling is with this map and the Jester's exhaust, so want to put a wideband sensor in a stock O2 sensor location, and remove the stock sensor. This only works if it will not have any effect on the tuning.

 

[Motzarelli]

The exhaust valve is obviously removed as part of removing the original exhaust.

Original o2 sensors I believe need to be in place as they are before the cat that is now gone anyway and will still effect self tuning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ArcticWhite]

That's what I was thinking, but don't understand their last statement about lambda probes able to be removed.

 

[DucatiKev]

I didn’t understand it being removed my buddy’s tuned bike, I thought it was needed to monitor that the bike is running out he said no it’s just for emissions and once it’s tuned you don’t even need them.

 

[RickD996]

Removed them all from my bike after T800 install, all good.

 

[youpaiyou]

I removed them too

 

[DucatiKev]

So T800 that comes with the Termi slipons is the real deal?
Any warranty issues other than that one dude whose extra lithium battery warranty did not cover his failed lithium battery?

 

[ArcticWhite]

This means the tune must remove closed loop operation and be purely open loop.

 

[KurtP]

The D184 SR map states:
-Dashboard message "racing pro"
-Exhaust Valve error disabled, it is possible to remove the valve.
-Lambda probe error disabled, it is possible to remove the lambda probes from the motorcycle.

I wanted to confirm the O2 sensors on the bike are not used at any time. It seems weird to me that the upmap would remove closed loop fuelling from the bike.

I want to see far off the fuelling is with this map and the Jester's exhaust, so want to put a wideband sensor in a stock O2 sensor location, and remove the stock sensor. This only works if it will not have any effect on the tuning.

I was wondering about this too. How does the ECU correct for changes in ambient temperature or elevation if the o2 sensors are disabled? Typically, the data collected in fuel trims during closed loop apply through long term learning to your open loop mapping. if the o2 sensors are disabled, then id be concerned that learning would stop, unless there is some other way the ecu can calculate a compensation. Seems like disabling the o2 sensor and running open loop is fine if your bike stays local/race bike etc, but if you take your bike on tour, id be concerned about how it would handle environmental changes.

Does the panigale have an intake temp sensor and a barometric pressure sensor? if so, I guess an Alpha-N protocol could work, but Im not sure what this upmap is doing in terms of protocol. My guess is it simply disables closed loop and runs open loop from table only.

Alternatively, there is a difference between disabling the o2 sensor and disabling the o2 sensor check error. If all they did was turn off the warning light as it relates to the o2 sensor, but the function still works, then all its doing is when the ECU checks for o2 and doesnt see them, logs the error, and then runs open loop...only because of the 'fix' it doesnt throw the error code. If thats the case, Id bung the leanest cyl on each bank for an o2 sensor, and leave them wired up, then voltage regulate so the close loop system targets a ~14.1-13.8 afr. The bike may run a tad rich at WOT as a result, but the rideability would be great, better mileage than pure open loop, and it would compensate much better for environmental changes throughout the year or as a result of geographic change.

I guess Im of the mind that open loop only on a race bike is fine, but I personally wouldn't run it on a road bike you take places.

 

[ArcticWhite]

I was wondering about this too. How does the ECU correct for changes in ambient temperature or elevation if the o2 sensors are disabled? Typically, the data collected in fuel trims during closed loop apply through long term learning to your open loop mapping. if the o2 sensors are disabled, then id be concerned that learning would stop, unless there is some other way the ecu can calculate a compensation. Seems like disabling the o2 sensor and running open loop is fine if your bike stays local/race bike etc, but if you take your bike on tour, id be concerned about how it would handle environmental changes.

Does the panigale have an intake temp sensor and a barometric pressure sensor? if so, I guess an Alpha-N protocol could work, but Im not sure what this upmap is doing in terms of protocol. My guess is it simply disables closed loop and runs open loop from table only.

Alternatively, there is a difference between disabling the o2 sensor and disabling the o2 sensor check error. If all they did was turn off the warning light as it relates to the o2 sensor, but the function still works, then all its doing is when the ECU checks for o2 and doesnt see them, logs the error, and then runs open loop...only because of the 'fix' it doesnt throw the error code. If thats the case, Id bung the leanest cyl on each bank for an o2 sensor, and leave them wired up, then voltage regulate so the close loop system targets a ~14.1-13.8 afr. The bike may run a tad rich at WOT as a result, but the rideability would be great, better mileage than pure open loop, and it would compensate much better for environmental changes throughout the year or as a result of geographic change.

I guess Im of the mind that open loop only on a race bike is fine, but I personally wouldn't run it on a road bike you take places.

I assume it will do this like any speed density system, read the map sensor before engine start up to determine elevation and adjust fueling accordingly. I do agree that removing closed loop operation is not ideal for a street bike, but I also understand why they do it. These V2 and V4 engine appear to run smoother and cooler slightly rich at part throttle (upper 13's). You are not able to achieve this with closed loop operation.

Some of this is why I was asking the questions. I would not want to be tuning via tuneboy with O2's still enabled and have the long term fuel trims affect open loop fueling. I want all the fueling to be fixed so when I am tuning the part throttle, I am not throwing open loop fueling off. Typically not an issue at least on the cars I have done where you can reset the LT and ST fuel trims. Tuneboy does not seem to have this option working on the V4.

 

[KurtP]

I assume it will do this like any speed density system, read the map sensor before engine start up to determine elevation and adjust fueling accordingly. I do agree that removing closed loop operation is not ideal for a street bike, but I also understand why they do it. These V2 and V4 engine appear to run smoother and cooler slightly rich at part throttle (upper 13's). You are not able to achieve this with closed loop operation.

You can, it just requires shifting lambda voltage from the O2 sensor via a grounded voltage regulator down below 1 to around .939. A voltage of .939 for example gets a 13.8afr on my bike while in closed loop. AF-XIED or a Rapid bike easy would be 2 examples of these regulators, but o2 sensor has to be functioning. I think PCV can do this too. This would shift your closed loop fueling down to the upper 13's. Usually referred to as "lambda shifting". nightrider used to make a ducati kit a few years back, and I bet the existing one could be modified to work with a wiring diagram and knowing what the wiring is at the o2 sensor. My current BMW I shift down to about 14.1 closed loop operation using this method, and I reflashed the ECU for adjusting other parameters, my bike may run a touch rich at WOT as a result. You said your bike runs better in upper 13's, so it would just be a matter of restricting o2 sensor voltage a touch more to drop it down.

Some of this is why I was asking the questions. I would not want to be tuning via tuneboy with O2's still enabled and have the long term fuel trims affect open loop fueling. I want all the fueling to be fixed so when I am tuning the part throttle, I am not throwing open loop fueling off. Typically not an issue at least on the cars I have done where you can reset the LT and ST fuel trims. Tuneboy does not seem to have this option working on the V4.

As I understand it, you are correct. It would be possible for LTFT to dial out fueling adjustments made by tune boy. I think the problem you will find is going to be getting your part throttle to fuel and feel correct, since referencing open loop tables i doubt is as efficient/as fine resolution as simply allowing fuel trims to adjust to a parameter. Not to mention the time of going through all of those tables...uhg. My approach is going to be add an upmap with an exhaust that allows o2 sensor operation, and then lambda shift the voltage of the o2 sensor down. This way, LTFT will only end up adding a bit of fuel to open loop, so the bike might run a tad rich on open loop as a result of LTFT populating enrichment to the tables. The advantage being the bike would ride better at closed loop and as environmental factors continually change.

Following your journey with much interest and learning a lot. You're definitely embracing the suck trying to get this stuff sorted, and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[ArcticWhite]

I have tuned a few things speed density (from ATV's to cars). You can get it to run well, but it takes time as you said, as you really have to be able to hit all of the cells. It is especially required for cars with large cams, where the large overlap puts streams of air down the exhaust, throwing O2's off and can make MAF tuning difficult with the pulses.

As for your comments on voltage shifting. You mention shifting lambda voltage. Lambda refers to a wideband sensor. These sensors are narrow band. They are essentially a "switch" that switches on and off, at the 14.7:1 AFR point (stoich). Standard application in closed loop is that the ECU increases fuel till it switches, then decreases fuel till it switches and then the cycle continues. This is why your AFR at idle is always bouncing above and below 14.7:1 and is never just fixed at 14.7:1. As the switching is happening, this creates an average voltage. In reading that average voltage, you can discern AFR's other than 14.7:1, but it is not linear and not accurate. Shifting it down works to a point, but the problem is, you need that switching to occur to have any valid info from the sensor. If you shift it down too much, the AFR never gets above 14.7:1 OR it happens so infrequently that you don't have enough data to understand really where the AFR is at. It is a very band-aid approach to trying to use something in a way it was never meant to work. Because it becomes inaccurate as you do this, this will mean that your LT fuel trims may trend improperly due to that inaccuracy and throw off your open loop fuelling. This would not be my first choice for tuning a precision high HP engine.

 

[KurtP]

I have tuned a few things speed density (from ATV's to cars). You can get it to run well, but it takes time as you said, as you really have to be able to hit all of the cells. It is especially required for cars with large cams, where the large overlap puts streams of air down the exhaust, throwing O2's off and can make MAF tuning difficult with the pulses.

As for your comments on voltage shifting. You mention shifting lambda voltage. Lambda refers to a wideband sensor. These sensors are narrow band. They are essentially a "switch" that switches on and off, at the 14.7:1 AFR point (stoich). Standard application in closed loop is that the ECU increases fuel till it switches, then decreases fuel till it switches and then the cycle continues. This is why your AFR at idle is always bouncing above and below 14.7:1 and is never just fixed at 14.7:1. As the switching is happening, this creates an average voltage. In reading that average voltage, you can discern AFR's other than 14.7:1, but it is not linear and not accurate. Shifting it down works to a point, but the problem is, you need that switching to occur to have any valid info from the sensor. If you shift it down too much, the AFR never gets above 14.7:1 OR it happens so infrequently that you don't have enough data to understand really where the AFR is at. It is a very band-aid approach to trying to use something in a way it was never meant to work. Because it becomes inaccurate as you do this, this will mean that your LT fuel trims may trend improperly due to that inaccuracy and throw off your open loop fuelling. This would not be my first choice for tuning a precision high HP engine.

good luck!

 

[Mugal]

I was wondering about this too. How does the ECU correct for changes in ambient temperature or elevation if the o2 sensors are disabled? Typically, the data collected in fuel trims during closed loop apply through long term learning to your open loop mapping. if the o2 sensors are disabled, then id be concerned that learning would stop, unless there is some other way the ecu can calculate a compensation. Seems like disabling the o2 sensor and running open loop is fine if your bike stays local/race bike etc, but if you take your bike on tour, id be concerned about how it would handle environmental changes.

Does the panigale have an intake temp sensor and a barometric pressure sensor? if so, I guess an Alpha-N protocol could work, but Im not sure what this upmap is doing in terms of protocol. My guess is it simply disables closed loop and runs open loop from table only.

Alternatively, there is a difference between disabling the o2 sensor and disabling the o2 sensor check error. If all they did was turn off the warning light as it relates to the o2 sensor, but the function still works, then all its doing is when the ECU checks for o2 and doesnt see them, logs the error, and then runs open loop...only because of the 'fix' it doesnt throw the error code. If thats the case, Id bung the leanest cyl on each bank for an o2 sensor, and leave them wired up, then voltage regulate so the close loop system targets a ~14.1-13.8 afr. The bike may run a tad rich at WOT as a result, but the rideability would be great, better mileage than pure open loop, and it would compensate much better for environmental changes throughout the year or as a result of geographic change.

I guess Im of the mind that open loop only on a race bike is fine, but I personally wouldn't run it on a road bike you take places.

Hi i have installed the Termignoni D200 full exhaust and removed both sensors as per the recommendation by Termignoni. I have the 2018 V4 and they do not have an Upmap for the D200 system yet, only for the 2020/2021 V4. I assume they have a different ECU.
I have downloaded the Full Akrapovic map and it works 100%. I do not have Dyno figures but the bike response feels spot on and much improved.
The fuel consumption is definitely worse but other than that a monster.

 

[Pova]

I know most of you guys are working with newer bikes, but the T800 map for my 899 “disables 02 sensors” but I disconnected them and got a ce light, plugged them back in and ce light went away.

 

[youpaiyou]

I know most of you guys are working with newer bikes, but the T800 map for my 899 “disables 02 sensors” but I disconnected them and got a ce light, plugged them back in and ce light went away.

Weird. This is the first time someone has reported this. I’m wondering if it’s user error or a one off. Are you positive that you installed the new map correctly? Does your dash say Race Evo on start up?

 

[Pova]

Never displayed anything. Iirc I looked into why it didn’t on the 899 and found that it never did on the 899. I also have a “handheld tuner” and same thing with the O2’s, if disconnected throws the ce light. I have uninstalled and reinstalled a few times with same outcome.

The reason being is the T800 uploads rather than unlocking the race map.

 

[topolino]

Reading this with interest. If I do change to a D200 and remove the full Akra system, I will just leave my full Akra map in place and run the stock O2 sensor setup with the new Termi D200 system.

 

[DeussenEngines]

Reading this with interest. If I do change to a D200 and remove the full Akra system, I will just leave my full Akra map in place and run the stock O2 sensor setup with the new Termi D200 system.

If you change to a D200 you should get a map to match the exhaust. the O2 sensors only correct fuel in idle and part load up to 6k rpm. Above that the fueling is coming straight from fixed Mappings. What year bike do you have?

 

[topolino]

If you change to a D200 you should get a map to match the exhaust. the O2 sensors only correct fuel in idle and part load up to 6k rpm. Above that the fueling is coming straight from fixed Mappings. What year bike do you have?

2018