1299 blown engine with 2700km's

SuperDuc29 said:

But do remember the boards attract those with issues. The silent majority are those satisfied with their relatively problem free bikes and don't bother to post.

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Very true sir, I concede that....

NOLA

Ty1967 said:

Hi guys, I hope I didn't start any arguments. I've owned close to 20 different superbike motorcycles including 5x Ducati, 6x Kawa Ninjas, 3x Suzuki GSX-R, 1x Honda SP-1, 4x Yamaha R1 R6. From a mechanical standpoint I can say that Kawa and Suzuki had the worse major problems (broken valves, warped camshaft) and the Ducati the most minor problems (monthly clutch line bleeding, tire air loss, shutting off for no reason, rear brake line bleeding etc). The Yamahas always ran perfectly, but the suspension was ...... in combination with that powerful motor. The Honda was just heavy, but reliable. But from the fun factor (the noise, the styling, the awesome suspension, the lightness), nothing beats the Ducati in our opinion. It's like buying a Ferrari- you are always going to have issues, but having one is a total rush and a whole lot of fun!

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Very good info, you definitely have more empirical knowledge than me ! I appreciate all that too !

NOLA

I had my Panigale for about 1 and half years before it was wrecked. I had about 2600 miles on it. Obviously not a lot of riding in that time, but they were trouble free. Never had any issues in that time, not even a clutch bleed! Like SuperDuc said in my 4 years on here, I've mostly read what was going on with everybody else instead of posting. So there's a plus 1 in the reliable column! LOL

Glad to hear your wife is safe! Solid skills!! Keep us posted!

So, the cause for the failure has been found. A small piece of metal (don't know where it came from) jammed up the oil pump causing the gear sprocket that drives it to rip off and fly around in the housing. Since there was then no oil pressure and oil circulating, the engine seized up. The dealership is planning on replacing the whole engine. I'm glad it wasn't a material failure, this will help me sleep better!

Ty1967 said:

So, the cause for the failure has been found. A piece of metal jammed up the oil pump causing the sprocket that drove it to rip off and then fly around in the housing. Since there was then no oil pressure and oil circulating, the engine seized up. The dealership is planning on replacing the whole engine. I'm glad it wasn't a material failure, this will help me sleep better!

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This has been a issue with failing oil pumps . Ducati re designed the pump to prevent failure seems it's still a issue .

I personally know of three failures the same as yours but all in race bikes at high speed tracks . The last one the pump gear smashed the magnesium case .
Did they say where the metal came from and what it actually jammed ?

Hi, they said the pump is totally seized up- hard enough to rip off the gear head. They had just done an oil and filter change 3 weeks ago, so they assume the foreign body was already in the system somewhere. We were only revving at about 8000rpm and haven't been on the track yet. I'll ask them to take the pump apart and look inside.

Ty1967 said:

Hi, they said the pump is totally seized up- hard enough to rip off the gear head. They had just done an oil and filter change 3 weeks ago, so they assume the foreign body was already in the system somewhere. We were only revving at about 8000rpm and haven't been on the track yet. I'll ask them to take the pump apart and look inside.

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Sounds like someone F*ed up during the oil change and contaminated the oil... Regardless, glad to hear they will cover a new engine for ya!

Ty1967 said:

So, the cause for the failure has been found. A small piece of metal (don't know where it came from) jammed up the oil pump causing the gear sprocket that drives it to rip off and fly around in the housing. Since there was then no oil pressure and oil circulating, the engine seized up. The dealership is planning on replacing the whole engine. I'm glad it wasn't a material failure, this will help me sleep better!

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Hang on, how is this not a material failure? The piece of metal had to come from somewhere.

Ty1967 said:

Hi, they said the pump is totally seized up- hard enough to rip off the gear head. They had just done an oil and filter change 3 weeks ago, so they assume the foreign body was already in the system somewhere. We were only revving at about 8000rpm and haven't been on the track yet. I'll ask them to take the pump apart and look inside.

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maybe wife was ripping it up in the canyons when you were not around like Marquez.

NorCalDuke said:

Sounds like someone F*ed up during the oil change and contaminated the oil

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?

No, more likely the OP waited too long to perform oil changes.

I changed mine at 100, 500, and 1500 miles and it still looked worse (by far) than any Jap bike I've ever owned (at least 7 of them) with a ton of shavings on the magnetic plug

Some speculate the trans gears are soft and flake easily, who knows, but this bike absolutely requires early and frequent oil changes

So we have a filter, a magnetic plug and a screen in the pickup itself to hopefully prevent things like this. Which pump was the site of the insult? Delivery or return? The material that caused that kind of catastrophic failure was obviously fairly robust. Interested where it came from. I have to admit the materials used in these engines when i first started playing with them left me a bit reserved. Just my opinion but the alloys and steels in the Ducati power plants and transmissions seem a bit less refined than the Japanese bikes. The fit and finish of the precision parts seems a bit "under finished" I guess is the best way to describe them. There are metal particulates in all engines but the pieces that we have found in these 99 series motors are a bit more frightening. There are particulates of hardened steel being pulled out of these. This is not flash casting or finish casting. This is structural material. Im really thinking of doing some Rockwell testing on some of these internals. Anyhow, glad no one was hurt. I really like my 1299 because I built it from the ground up to the specs I wanted. It is also my very first Ducati. Would I buy a 1299 off the showroom floor?. Nope. Would I buy another Ducati? Probably not. I built it, I ride it and I like it but stock from a mechanical perspective, I don't think its a very good product especially for the money. If I was going to do it all over again, I would have built an R1 or an updated HRC bike.

Ultra 300x brings up a point I forgot. I think that rumor may have some legs. I think the trans gears are highly suspect and thats probably the first thing I would test. The gearbox in my 1299 so badly wishes it was the gearbox in my 1000RR. I do not like this gearbox at all. Sometimes it is smooth and other times I just want to park it. It seems fine above 7k with the QS where I get it, thats what the bike is for but my Honda is a Rolex from Idle to RL running an old HRC QS. Im actually going to ride a bunch of bikes tomorrow as i do not have a lot of experience with other brands. Aside from ratios, im wondering if the Corse gear set is different. The HRC gear set is massaged a bit and has a more refined finish than the standard gear set. Im going to pull the gear set out of one of the spare 1299 motors and start looking at it.

Interesting comment on the QS, mine just seems to get better and better with time (even at low rpm) - nicest shifting bike I've ever ridden. Unfortunately Ducati QC just isn't at the level of the Japanese bikes in many areas, and as you indicated, it should be for the asking price

With all that said, I believe this is the first 1299 (street) engine failure I've heard of - essentially no one starts threads to talk about how wonderful their bike is (except for 80shilling ) - they start threads to complain. One out of who knows how many thousands isn't bad.

For sure. I don't know what the % of people who own 99 series bikes are that are members of this board or who post. Again there are things in place that should prevent catastrophic contamination. Something like this certainly is not exclusive to this brand either. Im not a "bike" guy. My background is aerospace/aviation/medical. Im more into materials and I am very used to looking at and working with very exotic alloys and precision manufacturing so i am always interested in mechanical things. Im just not very impressed with this particular manufacturer in terms of quality. Thats just an opinion. The gear box to me is inconsistent. I think the gear box is fixable if your willing to go through it and massage it a bit.Yep a lot of it is me. I have a fully kitted HRC 1000RR that to me has a much smoother and more consistent gearbox and that bike is a 2006. I have ridden them in succession on many occasions and the RR is just a better bike (mechanically) and for a bike that is 10 years old its right there with the 1299 in performance. I have a few spare 1299 motors that i really want to look into and see just what these guys use for materials. The motor in my bike was rebuilt out of the crate. Hand built and spec I think these motors are good. I changed the rods, crank, springs, valves. I think the motor is now pretty good (reliability) off the assembly line, I think Ducati has some issues. Some of the design mechanics on the motor just leave you scratching your head at times.

While the engine is taken apart to fix the oil pump, ask them to check the crank bearings, conrod bearings, and piston rings, also gearbox bearings to make sure they are ok.
Mine broke down due to big end rod bearings failing, and that killdd the oil pump.
Trust me you don't want to see the parts bills for big end bearing failure. Need to replace crank, pistons, rods, rings, bearings, cylinder sleeves.... Thousands. Five digits!

Edit: oh hang on, you're getting your engine replaced . All good then

Hi guys thanks for all the comments- very interesting and helpful!
Here my answers to the questions asked... the first 1000km oil change and inspection was late because the dealership was booked out. It was done at 1400km, but she never revved over 6000rpm before the oil change. She also kept the revs under 8000 until 2500km's. The failure happened at 2700km. The mechanic is assuming that metal got into the oil pump, because it is totally locked up. I looked at the the technical diagram and honestly can't figure out how a foreign object can bypass the screen, filter and magnet.
Gearbox on both bikes (mine and hers) are fantastic- no problems and smooth. The gearbox on my 2011 1198S Corse Special Edition wasn't better in my opinion. The gear ratio was also taller- it was hard to decide which gear to use for the track on a tight turn- 2nd or 3rd.
When I said I'm happy that it wasn't material failure, I meant I'm glad the cause was a foreign object, and not a hairline crack in a rocker or enclosed air bubble in a piston rod etc.
As for the workmanship... there are a couple of small things that could be better: the side stand is impossible to open when sitting on the bike with motorcycle boots, the clutch reservoir touches the windscreen when you turn the handlebars, the front tire scrapes against the bottom fairing when the handlebars are turned slightly to the left and you compress the forks hard, the turn signal display in the cockpit is impossible to see if the sun is shining, sometimes the bike shuts off for no reason, there is only one color offered- red, if you drive over a pothole, you almost get castrated , but hell, I can live with that! This is the most awesome bike I've ever ridden.
And all are correct in saying that "failure posts" are dominant in the forum, but that is the main reason I use it- to see if it is a common occurance or something that happens to 1 out of 1000 bikes.
This experience has in no way reduced our opinion of Ducati- my wife can't wait to get rolling again. We should have it back by next week, best wishes.

I suspect you may be correct in assuming there is no metal I can't see it but may be wrong .
My guess is the bearing failed and locked up the pump . The earlier ones did this and the shaft would unscrew and let loose I think yours may have done the same but just broke the drive shaft .
Everyting will be fixed I think you have just had some bad luck it's not common to happen but it does you just got unlucky .

Dude, great job by the wife to keep it upright. Major Kudos right there.

Hope they dealer doesn't take too long to get it back to you.

I just hate how most Italian bikes consider the little details as afterthoughts, the devil is in the details and they know this but complacency will be complacency.