! Can Line - Word of warning

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SPJ

Joined
Feb 12, 2012
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Had this come up today and wondered if anyone else had experienced anything similar. The message '! Can Line' in red across the dash illuminated and all the discreet lights (indicators, neutral, oil etc) came on as well.

By the time I had pulled in and stopped all was back to normal, had a good look around the bike but couldn't see anything amiss so continued. It then came back again several times intermittently and was on half the time by the end of the ride.

The IMPORTANT thing to note though is that it was interfering with the rider aids. I very nearly ended up splattered to the front of a car when the DTC kicked in and chopped the power. The DQS was also affected, I suspect if I'd left all the aids on I might have found ABS and EBC problems as well. I turned all the gizmo's off and made it home without incident other than the lights flashing and error message displayed at times.

Still none the wiser as to what is causing the fault, the shop took a quick look this afternoon, apparently the first place to look is a bad earth but that was fine. The diagnostic equipment confirmed there had been a fault but was unable to say where it had occurred - all parameters with the bike were normal.

Anyone have any ideas? It's pretty hot in the UK at the moment, the bike was fairly hot all morning and the engine temperature reading was blanking from time to time, as was the speedo, coinciding with the can line message.
 
I would guess that there is a loose line(loose or disconnected) which would cause a communication error between the computers( which is a CANBUS communication type).
 
can bus line.

Make sure 100% your battery and connections are ok. Half a volt out on some electronics will send them ape. I"m talking about my experiences in the auto trade. I"m guessing the diagnostic kit your dealer uses would tell them about voltage supply problems if any fault codes were posted in the ECU. Might have just been a glitch and nothing more. But yeah can"t say it any other way,connections need checking. Did your dealer take off fairing and check battery and connections?
 
I'm pretty sure it's a loose connection too, just not sure where. Strange that it only happens when hot though.

Dealer was pretty good, fitted it in there and then, spent an hour with the fairings off and checking the connections and with the diagnostic kit plugged in but couldn't reproduce it. Looks like I'll have to book it in for a day and let them investigate further.
 
SPJ said:
I'm pretty sure it's a loose connection too, just not sure where. Strange that it only happens when hot though.

Dealer was pretty good, fitted it in there and then, spent an hour with the fairings off and checking the connections and with the diagnostic kit plugged in but couldn't reproduce it. Looks like I'll have to book it in for a day and let them investigate further.
Click to expand...

Heat reduces conductivity. Money on bad ground somewhere.
 
SPJ said:
Had this come up today and wondered if anyone else had experienced anything similar. The message '! Can Line' in red across the dash illuminated and all the discreet lights (indicators, neutral, oil etc) came on as well.

By the time I had pulled in and stopped all was back to normal, had a good look around the bike but couldn't see anything amiss so continued. It then came back again several times intermittently and was on half the time by the end of the ride.

The IMPORTANT thing to note though is that it was interfering with the rider aids. I very nearly ended up splattered to the front of a car when the DTC kicked in and chopped the power. The DQS was also affected, I suspect if I'd left all the aids on I might have found ABS and EBC problems as well. I turned all the gizmo's off and made it home without incident other than the lights flashing and error message displayed at times.

Still none the wiser as to what is causing the fault, the shop took a quick look this afternoon, apparently the first place to look is a bad earth but that was fine. The diagnostic equipment confirmed there had been a fault but was unable to say where it had occurred - all parameters with the bike were normal.

Anyone have any ideas? It's pretty hot in the UK at the moment, the bike was fairly hot all morning and the engine temperature reading was blanking from time to time, as was the speedo, coinciding with the can line message.
Click to expand...

It is probably the white connector plug under the rear of the tank that is the wiring for the rear light/indicators and DDA connector, some have let water in and corroded even at very low mileage
 
Base on-hand only available material which is the 1199 Owners manual, English page 90 description,the displayed CAN LINE, represent the CAN line BUS is off.

i don't think is a bad or ground-shift issue as the CAN BUS which is made up of 2 lines called CANH and CANL which transmit/received messages with differential voltages from these line.

The CAN bus might have detected an error from the transmitted/received messages.The error could be wrong checksum or simply wrong number of anticipated bits of HIGH/LOW or dominant/reccessive signal detected for a known or intended message.intervention will be to shut off the CAN BUS.Retry strategy of the BUS could still be happening though for hope of recovery. That's why it may come back on, even after error.

Were you working on your bike's wiring harness intended/or by accidental before this happens? any new electronics installed?

DDS only diagnose high level/general error but will not specifically state what CAN bus error it really is and where is coming from. Question is who's controller and CAN transciever (Melco Fuel injection ECU or Bosch ABS ECU,BBS,Instrument panel) is detecting this error.ECU suppliers have means to diagnose specific error.Have Ducati dealer to pressure Ducati Co. to look into it with their suppliers.

The bike's electronics is too complicated for any of us to rationale,even more so if we have no proper tools both HW/SoftWare...

if you really are into electronics,...HSCAN transceiver example ("telephone of the Micro-controllers")
http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/TJA1042.pdf
 
SPJ said:
Had this come up today and wondered if anyone else had experienced anything similar. The message '! Can Line' in red across the dash illuminated and all the discreet lights (indicators, neutral, oil etc) came on as well.

By the time I had pulled in and stopped all was back to normal, had a good look around the bike but couldn't see anything amiss so continued. It then came back again several times intermittently and was on half the time by the end of the ride.

The IMPORTANT thing to note though is that it was interfering with the rider aids. I very nearly ended up splattered to the front of a car when the DTC kicked in and chopped the power. The DQS was also affected, I suspect if I'd left all the aids on I might have found ABS and EBC problems as well. I turned all the gizmo's off and made it home without incident other than the lights flashing and error message displayed at times.

Still none the wiser as to what is causing the fault, the shop took a quick look this afternoon, apparently the first place to look is a bad earth but that was fine. The diagnostic equipment confirmed there had been a fault but was unable to say where it had occurred - all parameters with the bike were normal.

Anyone have any ideas? It's pretty hot in the UK at the moment, the bike was fairly hot all morning and the engine temperature reading was blanking from time to time, as was the speedo, coinciding with the can line message.
Click to expand...


So... the DTC "kick's in" after the CAN Line error....

Assuming you also have the document of the 1199's vehicle wiring harness inside Owner's manual. you can see the ABS controller "owns" or directly connected to the front/rear wheel speed sensor(s).These sensors data are pass over the CANBUS from ABS ECU to EFI ECU to decide if DTC intervention is needed. As DTC cut power in stages by ignition retardation followed by fuel mass reduction so EFI is the controller.

Best guess is to look into the CAN bus portion between ABS and EFI for loose connectivity, that is provided you know where it is physically to trace on the bike....is alot of work... enjoy..:D

ITEM 23 & 22 F/R Wheel speed sensor
ITEM 66 ABS ECU
 

Attachments

  • 2012_1199_BASE_ABS.jpg
    2012_1199_BASE_ABS.jpg
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Last edited:
Just a heads up in case anyone else has this fault, it was a duff DP alarm that was causing the problem. Currently unplugged and all is fine, awaiting a replacement.
 
SPJ said:
Just a heads up in case anyone else has this fault, it was a duff DP alarm that was causing the problem. Currently unplugged and all is fine, awaiting a replacement.
Click to expand...

Glad you got that sussed. Got a DP alarm myself,will log this info into my grey matter,in case I have any woes. Good one.
 
Titaniumvalves said:
Base on-hand only available material which is the 1199 Owners manual, English page 90 description,the displayed CAN LINE, represent the CAN line BUS is off.

i don't think is a bad or ground-shift issue as the CAN BUS which is made up of 2 lines called CANH and CANL which transmit/received messages with differential voltages from these line.

The CAN bus might have detected an error from the transmitted/received messages.The error could be wrong checksum or simply wrong number of anticipated bits of HIGH/LOW or dominant/reccessive signal detected for a known or intended message.intervention will be to shut off the CAN BUS.Retry strategy of the BUS could still be happening though for hope of recovery. That's why it may come back on, even after error.

Were you working on your bike's wiring harness intended/or by accidental before this happens? any new electronics installed?

DDS only diagnose high level/general error but will not specifically state what CAN bus error it really is and where is coming from. Question is who's controller and CAN transciever (Melco Fuel injection ECU or Bosch ABS ECU,BBS,Instrument panel) is detecting this error.ECU suppliers have means to diagnose specific error.Have Ducati dealer to pressure Ducati Co. to look into it with their suppliers.

The bike's electronics is too complicated for any of us to rationale,even more so if we have no proper tools both HW/SoftWare...

if you really are into electronics,...HSCAN transceiver example ("telephone of the Micro-controllers")
http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/TJA1042.pdf
Click to expand...


I am curious: Every can bus requires a 120 ohm terminating resistor at each end of the bus to reduce reflections and maintain low impedance - do we know which can components provide the termination in the 1199 ?

By design it should be terminated at the farthest points of the bus i.e. the dash and the DDA plug. In practice it may be those components that we can not possibly do without i.e. the ECU and the Dash or the BBS (BBS would be better from a topological point of view)
 
And technically on the CAN bud it requires twisted pair as well as properly designed wiring for reflections. And ringing depending on the frequency. I work on CAN as a profession. Should be interesting taking a CAN trace as well as seeing what pdo or SdO are being transmitted when your alarm is connected
 
craigslistbuyermn said:
And technically on the CAN bus it requires twisted pair as well as properly designed wiring for reflections. And ringing depending on the frequency. I work on CAN as a profession. Should be interesting taking a CAN trace as well as seeing what pdo or SdO are being transmitted when your alarm is connected
Click to expand...

Have you done any tracing on Ducatis ? Do they use CANOpen ? Do all the componets (ECU,ABS,BBS,Dash,GPS,E-lock) all use the same CAN protocol as they are mostly from different vendors ? or can several protocols co-exist on the same network eg. CANOpen/J1939 so long as the two nodes of a conversation are compatible?
Definitely keen to understand more...
 
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Not yet, but this thread has me inspired. Ill take my CAN analyzer. I assume its a 29bit identifier assuming its j1939. Curious to see if they have different layers as well. Maybe this week ill take a look. Looking for anything specific ?
 
On a bike with this much electronics it fills me with dread to think about keeping it running in 20 years time! I like to be self sufficient and not reliant on others when it comes to looking after MY things. The more learn about the system before support falls away the better. Additionally I'd like to be writing iOS apps and tricks to work with the system. (think dragable fuel maps at Starbucks! :D)
 
craigslistbuyermn said:
Not yet, but this thread has me inspired. Ill take my CAN analyzer. I assume its a 29bit identifier assuming its j1939. Curious to see if they have different layers as well. Maybe this week ill take a look. Looking for anything specific ?
Click to expand...


When "vying" for prority in using the physical line,is the abitration, in each CAN frame, OEM speicifc or common or following a world standard?

How do you figure out the abitration list from the Melco ECU? i assume it follow the MagneticM.,Siemen's as dictated or defined by Ducati_OEM.

...unless you know an insider in Ducati's R&D...:cool:
 
The priority is specified by the CAN specification and determined by the CAN message ID (11 or 29 bits) with lower IDs having the higher priority.
 
This is over my head, but I think as long as CAN buses have been around there is good experience to keep these machines running until they get away from this technology. Isn't CAN system like daisy chained, where one thing fails and it all goes to hell?
Why not make all of this a star/ring wiring scheme using IP/LAN protocols, give each system an IP address and a strong processor to know/log exactly which physical path is failing, taking out the guesswork in troubleshooting while at the same time enabling redundant signal paths between all systems via routing, like the internet? Just a thought, there are probably money, material and weight considerations in doing this.
 
Fragile said:
This is over my head, but I think as long as CAN buses have been around there is good experience to keep these machines running until they get away from this technology. Isn't CAN system like daisy chained, where one thing fails and it all goes to hell?
Why not make all of this a star/ring wiring scheme using IP/LAN protocols, give each system an IP address and a strong processor to know/log exactly which physical path is failing, taking out the guesswork in troubleshooting while at the same time enabling redundant signal paths between all systems via routing, like the internet? Just a thought, there are probably money, material and weight considerations in doing this.
Click to expand...

Nope CAN is designed to be an unbroken bus topology with all components connecting to the same conductors. If one station goes faulty is (either too many rx errors or too many tx errors) it will remove itself from the bus in order not to interfere with the remaining devices. CAN is designed to be one of the most robust and reliable communication buses for use in hostile environments (e.g automotive).

In our case it's hard to say EXACTLY what is implied by the Dash's 'CAN LINE ERROR" display. Has it had too many rx errors and gone 'off-bus' ? Myself I doubt it - more likely to be a higher level or supervisory error condition such as the Dash saying "I am expecting to see a message from the ECU every 100ms but I haven't seen one - something's up!"
 

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