Difference between street bike and factory race bike

SuperDomestique · May 21, 2023

999RS motor needed a $50k engine refresh every 500 km!!!

Even street 999S doing track duties will need more frequent service every 2500 km

Sounds like Ducati’s Achilles heel is big end bearings running out. Wonder if this is still the case with the V4. @craig bush did you ever figure out what caused your engine to self-destruct?

SuperDomestique · May 21, 2023

According to the Ducati "Scheduled Maintenance for Racing use" guide for the V4, you're looking at an engine rebuild every 5000 km (3000 mi). On the R, it's every 2500 km (1500 mi). Yikes!

Bruce Wayne · May 21, 2023

SuperDomestique said:
According to the Ducati "Scheduled Maintenance for Racing use" guide for the V4, you're looking at an engine rebuild every 5000 km (3000 mi). On the R, it's every 2500 km (1500 mi). Yikes!

For an engine that revs to 16,000 rpm 2500 klm between rebuild is pretty good IMO
The R1 has a similar rebuild schedule.

craig bush · May 21, 2023

SuperDomestique said:
Sounds like Ducati’s Achilles heel is big end bearings running out. Wonder if this is still the case with the V4. @craig bush did you ever figure out what caused your engine to self-destruct?

Not to a certainty, but big end bearing failure (i.e. soun bearing) is the prime suspect.

craig bush · May 21, 2023

SuperDomestique said:
According to the Ducati "Scheduled Maintenance for Racing use" guide for the V4, you're looking at an engine rebuild every 5000 km (3000 mi). On the R, it's every 2500 km (1500 mi). Yikes!

My bike had ~5500 miles on it (mostly track) at the time of failure. I talked to Mark Sutton (founder of DucShop in Georgia and highly reputable engine builder), and he said that even for a built motor he wouldn’t expect more than 5000 track day miles.

DCPanni · May 21, 2023

The WSB rules are a lot different now. Back then you could have race only parts like the crank, valves and cams if those parts were available to the non factory teams. In 2014 the WSB rules changed quite a bit and now those parts have to be the same parts on the street bike. You can tweak them, but no new race only parts. Most of the allowable changes from the homologated bike in WSB are the frame and suspension. I think they all use a spec ECU too now.

SuperDomestique · May 21, 2023

999RS seems to be the pinnacle of the super special WSBK bikes. Basically a half of a GP8. Wish Biggelaar did more videos.

Wonder what the Desmosedici engine refresh schedule is?

Honda seem to be on the same frequent schedule with their RCV213. Again, another £40k refresh. Or £1k a lap around the TT course.

Seems like the more revs you use, the more frequently you have to do engine refreshes.

And I thought my hobbies were expensive…

DCPanni · May 21, 2023

Never heard of lithium calipers.

Paul G · May 21, 2023

wait until you rebuild your desmosedici, mind you if you own one you also can afford 30-40k rebuilds

bp_SFV4 · May 21, 2023

craig bush said:
My bike had ~5500 miles on it (mostly track) at the time of failure. I talked to Mark Sutton (founder of DucShop in Georgia and highly reputable engine builder), and he said that even for a built motor he wouldn’t expect more than 5000 track day miles.

Have you considered sending him an engine for service?

craig bush · May 21, 2023

bp_SFV4 said:
Have you considered sending him an engine for service?

View attachment 49706

Yep - that’s exactly why I reached out to him. His advice was essentially “why bother?” He said 5k track miles is good even for a blueprinted motor. If you’re getting that from oem, just replace with a new or lightly used stock motor every few thousand miles.

bp_SFV4 · May 21, 2023

5k track miles seems like a lot. I'll have to see how many 20 minute sessions that could be, but I'd bet it's a lot.

It seems like he's painting himself into a corner of irrelevance though...I mean, maybe for a race team with cash to spare to ensure an engine doesn't dentate mid-race they'd still buy in.

I wonder if there's a standard refresh parts kit Ducati dealers have access to for re-builds. The time involved to look everything up and quote it would be an expense on it's own. You'd think there would be a single part number for a refresh kit.

craig bush · May 21, 2023

bp_SFV4 said:
5k track miles seems like a lot. I'll have to see how many 20 minute sessions that could be, but I'd bet it's a lot.

It seems like he's painting himself into a corner of irrelevance though...I mean, maybe for a race team with cash to spare to ensure an engine doesn't dentate mid-race they'd still buy in.

I wonder if there's a standard refresh parts kit Ducati dealers have access to for re-builds. The time involved to look everything up and quote it would be an expense on it's own. You'd think there would be a single part number for a refresh kit.

Agreed - a refresh kit would be nice.

I’m not intending to speak for Mark, but I asked if he’d seen many v4 fallers and he said no. I think the majority of his motor builds are v2’s. I didn’t ask specifically, but I don’t know if he’s built any v4’s. Iirc, he said it’d be a ~$10k build between parts and labor, and that it probably makes more fiscal sense to just buy another motor.

Alkhater · May 21, 2023

craig bush said:
Agreed - a refresh kit would be nice.

I’m not intending to speak for Mark, but I asked if he’d seen many v4 fallers and he said no. I think the majority of his motor builds are v2’s. I didn’t ask specifically, but I don’t know if he’s built any v4’s. Iirc, he said it’d be a ~$10k build between parts and labor, and that it probably makes more fiscal sense to just buy another motor.

Would be nice if they offered replacement blueprinted motors.

bp_SFV4 · May 21, 2023

craig bush said:
Agreed - a refresh kit would be nice.

I’m not intending to speak for Mark, but I asked if he’d seen many v4 fallers and he said no. I think the majority of his motor builds are v2’s. I didn’t ask specifically, but I don’t know if he’s built any v4’s. Iirc, he said it’d be a ~$10k build between parts and labor, and that it probably makes more fiscal sense to just buy another motor.

Alkhater said:
Would be nice if they offered replacement blueprinted motors.

Instantly I'm reminded that Aprilia and BWM have better factory support (AF1 Racing and Alpha [HHR] Racing).

Maybe Ducati just needs to offer crate engines like the big three American auto makters do.

Bruce Wayne · May 21, 2023

Alkhater said:
Would be nice if they offered replacement blueprinted motors.

You can buy through corse around $20,000 aud

craig bush · May 22, 2023

Bruce Wayne said:
You can buy through corse around $20,000 aud

Have you seen any v4 failures? If so, have you rebuilt any?

craig bush · May 22, 2023

bp_SFV4 said:
Instantly I'm reminded that Aprilia and BWM have better factory support (AF1 Racing and Alpha [HHR] Racing).

Part of the reason i bought an rsv4.

Bruce Wayne · May 22, 2023

craig bush said:
Have you seen any v4 failures? If so, have you rebuilt any?

No, our bikes engines get swapped at 3,000 klm but we did run one of them out to 4,000 klm they seem to be very reliable

bp_SFV4 · May 22, 2023

Bruce Wayne said:
You can buy through corse around $20,000 aud

I really don't get that pricing structure. For 1103 V4 owners you'd be better off to buy a base model whenever you needed a refresh.

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Difference between street bike and factory race bike

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