Electric Harley!!!!!!

Like all the other electric vehicle offerings these days, it's just a toy.

The one thing standing in the way of widespread acceptance of E-motorcycles (or E-cars) is the horrible re-fueling option (i.e. charging). Nothing much is going to happen to the market (i.e. it will be a fringe hobbyist/toy market) unless the manufacturers get together and agree on a standard for swappable battery packs. Until "re-fueling" (i.e. battery pack refresh) stops become no more time consuming than the usual gas-up of combustion engines...they're just toys.

Charliem90 said:

Like all the other electric vehicle offerings these days, it's just a toy.

The one thing standing in the way of widespread acceptance of E-motorcycles (or E-cars) is the horrible re-fueling option (i.e. charging). Nothing much is going to happen to the market (i.e. it will be a fringe hobbyist/toy market) unless the manufacturers get together and agree on a standard for swappable battery packs. Until "re-fueling" (i.e. battery pack refresh) stops become no more time consuming than the usual gas-up of combustion engines...they're just toys.

Click to expand...

Agreed. It's actually a fact that more "all electric" miles are driven by Volts than by Leafs and Teslas even though the Volt has a much smaller all-electric range. This is because people don't have range anxiety with Volts so they drive them more.

92GTA said:

No way, of course it's not like their current offerings, it's something brand new for them as a brand.

It would be idiotic for them to tease and garner all this great press only to turn around and release something that looks worse. If they did change it, it would have to be better.

I get what you are saying and normally I would totally agree, but I don't think this will be like that.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Aside from the fact that the bike appears (both aesthetically and functionally) to be nearly production ready, it seems Harley has devoted a good deal of resources to its development with the underlying intention of transferring most, if not all, design elements from the demonstration models to the production version should they ever decide to move forward with manufacturing one. Apparently even the turbine-like audible signature of the electric motor's whine is uniquely Harley as a direct result of the motor's architectural particularities - a detail that certainly couldn't be developed by a group of film producers looking to cash in on a film ad placement opportunity, and something that wouldn't be worth the effort engineering if the targeted end-result was only to score a minute or two of brand placement in an a major film action scene.

CycleWorld recently published an interesting first ride article featuring an entertaining video with plenty of action shots:

CycleWorld: Harley-Davidson LiveWire Electric Motorcycle - First Ride

Just wanted to mention that they stated the whine is coming from the 90 degree bevel gear that is required due to the e-motor's longitudinal mounting, not the e-motor itself. It's gear whine, and a bevel set typically has an extra couple % power loss over a spur gear, so I'm really not too impressed... Seems like they wanted to mount the motor longitudinally for style reasons and are covering up the whiney bevel gears by calling it a "unique" sound.

Well, I design transmissions for a living and I can design you a whiney "turbine-like" transmission any time you want... it's what we call poor NVH in the industry lol. But hey, maybe I'm being too cynical

I wanted to add that I was involved a lot with Tesla as they were trying to make sure their transmissions DIDN'T whine in the high 16,000 RPM range, as like I said, it's a sign of poor NVH.

transdesigner said:

Just wanted to mention that they stated the whine is coming from the 90 degree bevel gear that is required due to the e-motor's longitudinal mounting, not the e-motor itself. It's gear whine, and a bevel set typically has an extra couple % power loss over a spur gear, so I'm really not too impressed... Seems like they wanted to mount the motor longitudinally for style reasons and are covering up the whiney bevel gears by calling it a "unique" sound.

Well, I design transmissions for a living and I can design you a whiney "turbine-like" transmission any time you want... it's what we call poor NVH in the industry lol. But hey, maybe I'm being too cynical

I wanted to add that I was involved a lot with Tesla as they were trying to make sure their transmissions DIDN'T whine in the high 16,000 RPM range, as like I said, it's a sign of poor NVH.

Click to expand...

The 1-2% of power loss is an interesting detail, although in the case of an electric bike I believe a little NVH is welcome as long as it: 1) doesn't significantly compromise/reduce the realistic longevity and integrity of the vehicle, 2) is pleasant to the ears, and 3) is indiscernible from the feel of the cockpit.

Audible stimuli is an important element of the riding experience. If this motorcycle characteristic can be carried over into electric bikes in a way that is both enjoyable and authentic (I loathe the idea of emitting synthesized sounds), then it may very well be worth the trade off - especially if it means creating a package that is overall more aesthetically appealing.

If the current state of charging remains, then the bike isn't ready in my opinion until I can ride 300 miles on a single charge. On power mode, I wouldn't even be able to ride to work and back and that's less than 20 minutes each way.

transdesigner said:

It's gear whine, and a bevel set typically has an extra couple % power loss over a spur gear, so I'm really not too impressed... Seems like they wanted to mount the motor longitudinally for style reasons and are covering up the whiney bevel gears by calling it a "unique" sound.

Well, I design transmissions for a living and I can design you a whiney "turbine-like" transmission any time you want... it's what we call poor NVH in the industry lol.

Click to expand...

Then IT IS a genuine H-D. Their first foray into the next Era of transportation already uses backwards-... and less-than-optimum technology. They've managed to keep the brand intact after all.

transdesigner said:

Well, I design transmissions for a living and I can design you a whiney "turbine-like" transmission any time you want... it's what we call poor NVH in the industry lol. But hey, maybe I'm being too cynical

Click to expand...

A little off-topic but I'm curious. Triumph Triples have a unique characteristic "whine" to them. Cause?

Duck41 said:

The 1-2% of power loss is an interesting detail, although in the case of an electric bike I believe a little NVH is welcome as long as it: 1) doesn't significantly compromise/reduce the realistic longevity and integrity of the vehicle, 2) is pleasant to the ears, and 3) is indiscernible from the feel of the cockpit.

Audible stimuli is an important element of the riding experience. If this motorcycle characteristic can be carried over into electric bikes in a way that is both enjoyable and authentic (I loathe the idea of emitting synthesized sounds), then it may very well be worth the trade off - especially if it means creating a package that is overall more aesthetically appealing.

Click to expand...

A typical spur gear set is about .3-.7% loss, a helical is about .4-1.5%, and hypoid is 3-6%. If's it's just a bevel and not a hypoid it'll be a little better, but still a source of loss that is preferable to avoid if at all possible.

And I agree, I would like some noise, in this case I just wish I didn't know what was causing it lol.

Charliem90 said:

A little off-topic but I'm curious. Triumph Triples have a unique characteristic "whine" to them. Cause?

Click to expand...

Honestly I'm not too familiar with Triumphs other than a friend that had a 675, and if I'm not sure of something I usually don't like to state guesses as facts so I'll state up front that I don't know enough about Triumphs to be sure.

That said, I know their intake has a higher pitch howl that I'm not a fan of, and I've heard a lot of people blame either their timing gears or primary gears for the whine. A lot of the Triumph guys say this is because they are spur gears and not helicals. While spur gears are the source for unbelievable gear whine in some race cars, I seriously doubt this is the issue unless they are poorly designed spur gears. I say this because all sportbikes I know of, from Hyabusas to RSV4s to Panigales, also use spur gears.

I still bet that the foot pegs won't be the rear sets we see in the
Livewire. They won't be any further back than a Diavel and more likely more forward.

JeffD said:

I still bet that the foot pegs won't be the rear sets we see in the
Livewire. They won't be any further back than a Diavel and more likely more forward.

Click to expand...

Changing the rearset design and/or placement is definitely a possibility, but I'm interested to know why you feel this will take place. I presume most changes will likely be influenced by the feedback they receive during the tour from riders belonging to the model's projected target market. If it turns out the ergonomics and foot placement receive plenty of positive feedback from this group, I see no reason for H-D to make any changes unless there is a compelling fiscal element associated with modifying the design.

I get the impression Harley understands that in order to branch into new markets, it will need to ensure future designs are in line with the desires of those models' correlating target markets. There may be temptation by some within the company to revert back to more traditional design cues, but based on the fact the Livewire even exists today in its current form, it seems that particular temptation is slowly paling in comparison to the company's more commanding desire to ensure future growth and expansion.

I just want to say that I'm really diggin the sound the more of the videos I watch. Reminds me of the motorbike that Kirk rides up on in the first Star Trek reboot. I think it sounds awesome.

Duck41 said:

Changing the rearset design and/or placement is definitely a possibility, but I’m interested to know why you feel this will take place.

Click to expand...

I agree 100% that the point of calling it a concept and not a pre-production model is that the details will be decided by the customer feedback from the roadshow they're doing. The design is so sporty that it's just shocking to me. I have resentment towards H-D for closing Buell, and perhaps that is shaping my attitude that they won't keep the "sport" elements in the final product, namely the rearset pegs. Show me another H-D product that has anything like that seating position. The only thing that comes close is the recent XR1200X, which didn't sell well and was discontinued last year - IMHO because it was too sporty and nobody cared about road-racing Harley's.

To me the design makes complete sense, especially as a city bike they claim it's intended to be, but the H-D product line has always adhered to more of a function follows form/tradition. Feet ridiculously far forward is as much a H-D trademark as the "potato-potato" cadence of their ancient motor architecture. I would be surprised if the decision makers would even let customer response dictate a change away from that. I could be totally wrong, but I'm just placing my bet.

JeffD said:

The design is so sporty that it's just shocking to me. I have resentment towards H-D for closing Buell, and perhaps that is shaping my attitude that they won't keep the "sport" elements in the final product, namely the rearset pegs. Show me another H-D product that has anything like that seating position.

Click to expand...

Yes they didn't do Buell any favours, but they may have done Erick a favour in the long run.

Check out the 2006 HD VRSCR (Street Rod). It was a year model built over an 18 month period.
It was my first and only Harley, and it's a truly fantastic motorcycle. I've still got it and she's a keeper
People still stop to admire it when it's parked

They also made the Street Rod for the 2007 model year and changed the styling/colour scheme, which killed it off in an instant.
I think I've only ever seen one 2007 model in the wild, but a few 2006 models.
They're quite a rare beast.

Like all Harleys it's heavy, and way over-engineered.
That's the problem with HD. They don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of light weight like DUCATI does. They're totally poles apart in that regard.
Excessive weight is one of the major factors that killed off the VR1000 race bike.

At the end of the day, the only thing that came out of the VR1000 is the engine, which provided the building blocks for the Revolution engine.

Overweight bikes will always be a major drawback for HD unless they get their heads out of their collective ......
Also the demographic they're marketing to, generally don't embrace the concept of a real sports/performance bike, let alone see themselves riding one.

The typical Harley buyers don't like the Revolution powered bikes, and discriminate against them on the basis that they're not "real Harleys".
And potential new customers to the brand are really only offered the typical air cooled V-Twins.
I see that HD are now building a small Sportster type of bike with a 2 valve version of the liquid cooled Revolution engine.

It all appears to be an attempt to bridge the gap between what they're traditionally known for, and what they were doing in 2006.
Maybe they will move forward from this new position, and one day arrive in the modern age.

It's a very, very long way to catch up to DUCATI though

Well.. I think the difference in the mentality that HD vs. DUCATI has to do with the audience of their products more than HD not knowing about lightweight or not recognizing the benefits of it.

HD doesn't care about being lightweight... they are all about big metal and the culture that goes with it... who is racing a harley to really care about lightweight??

I still own my 13 VRSCF and love it... it's an awesome bike and love the releaxed seating position... Once i got on the Harley after riding the 1199R all day and boy o boy was i happy.. yes its not fast or agile but it has its own way of putting a smile in my face and esp. when I'm totally toasted in my 1199R...

I agree that the Harley's are heavy and use antiquated technology. But that's all their customers are looking for. Why add something that their customers aren't asking for?

HD made like 17% profit on $5.9B last year. You can't say they are a stupid company. I had a Harley in '08 and it was a great bike. Never had any problem and service was great. I sold it just because it was a bit too laid back for me.

Everyone likes to bash on them about how they are crap. But in honesty, yes they are simple technology. And yes, they could make them lighter, (personally I think they should). But they are producing a product that has a huge following, so they have to be careful with alienating their user base. Anyone that has owned one cannot claim that they are made of cheap materials. They're just a low tech design that happens to be incredibly popular with the brand's following.

You guys may recall that Ducati went through a period for being known for horrible build quality. I remember in the 90's the saying was "of course I know how to wrench on a bike, I own a ducati." But they're not the same as then. (Except for the god-damn expanding tanks here in the U.S. (gotta throw that in every chance I get--F#ck you Ducati!!) :-(

I think the electric bike is right up their alley. It doesn't have to go 200mph. It just needs to handle well, but not as much as say, a 1199. It's really a smart move on their part. IMO, If I was HD, I'd outsource most/all of the bike to smaller vendors in the U.S. to keep production costs down and run with it.

All that said, IMO, until the batteries hit the 150mi range sweet spot; electric bikes are going to be a hard sell to most/all.

I'll definitely go look at it when and if it makes it to my local HD showroom.

I'm also curious about the zero streetfighter... Electric bike concept is definitely intriguing.

Thing is, that bike's around $17k after you add in the fast charger, extra tank fuel cell and some other thing that's $$...

Brad said:

Like all Harleys it's heavy, and way over-engineered.

Click to expand...

Jello said:

Click to expand...

But Harley paint is generally regarded as first class.
And at a fraction of the cost of an SL