For OZ based ppl

Ducati Forum

Help Support Ducati Forum:

Thanks,

But I already use AP Racing DOT 5.1 fluid in everything around here.
 
Just making sure you bought this one

Shell Advanced Brake Fluid - 500ml
DOT 4 Super Fortified Synthetic. Is a high performance glycol ether brake fluid that offers 280 ºC dry and 170 ºC wet boiling points.
 
Thanks Nik

looks like $10 cheaper than I paid at Frasers

Guys I got the wrong oil delivered...at least I think so, now I am waiting for a new one from zuma motorcylces...I will let you know
 
Ducati says to use Dot 4. What does 5.1 do for you besides extra cost ?


I'm not sure of the cost component.
It is effectively DOT 4 with the volume turned up.
DOT 5.1 was formulated in response to industry requirements, for the following reasons.

Dot 5.1 was intended to "not facilitate" discolouration of the Brake/clutch fluid as part of it's design criteria. So it's better for appearances;)
In terms of cost, I think it's more cost effective over a longer term, because I don't have to flush discoloured fluid out of my system half as much as I do with DOT 4:)
So it's much better value for me:cool:

It has the added benefit of a higher boiling point over DOT 4 within any given brands' formulations.
Some brands may have a higher boiling point in their DOT 4 fluid over another brands' Dot 5.1, but it's still superior within the same brands' formulation over DOT 4.
Not that I think we need to worry about that on our bikes;)

It's also less viscous, as a requirement of it's design parameters and intended purpose for use in ABS Braking Systems.
This is in order to improve consistency of the ABS operation over a wider range of parameters and climatic conditions than DOT 4 in any given system.

DOT 5.1 is also known by another name early on in it's life when it originally came to market in about 2005(I think) as Super DOT 4.
The industry has generally moved to the less confusing designation of DOT 5.1.
But people are also confusing it with DOT 5 (Silicon fluid), which it's absolutely not.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure of the cost component.
It is effectively DOT 4 with the volume turned up.
DOT 5.1 was formulated in response to industry requirements, for the following reasons.

Dot 5.1 was intended to "not facilitate" discolouration of the Brake/clutch fluid as part of it's design criteria. So it's better for appearances;)
In terms of cost, I think it's more cost effective over a longer term, because I don't have to flush discoloured fluid out of my system half as much as I do with DOT 4:)
So it's much better value for me:cool:

It has the added benefit of a higher boiling point over DOT 4 within any given brands' formulations.
Some brands may have a higher boiling point in their DOT 4 fluid over another brands' Dot 5.1, but it's still superior within the same brands' formulation over DOT 4.
Not that I think we need to worry about that on our bikes;)

It's also less viscous, as a requirement of it's design parameters and intended purpose for use in ABS Braking Systems.
This is in order to improve consistency of the ABS operation over a wider range of parameters and climatic conditions than DOT 4 in any given system.

DOT 5.1 is also known by another name early on in it's life when it originally came to market in about 2005(I think) as Super DOT 4.
The industry has generally moved to the less confusing designation of DOT 5.1.
But people are also confusing it with DOT 5 (Silicon fluid), which it's absolutely not.

So why does Ducati recommend DOT 4 ? If 5.1 is better for ABS systems then why does ducati not recommend that ? Motul 600 is a Dot 4 with a pretty high boiling point.
What is the source of your info for 5.1 design parameters ?
 
My understanding is that dot5 is a lot more hygroscopic compared to dot4, meaning it will absorp water/moisture significantly faster than dot4. Moisture in the brake fluid can cause dangerous vapor lock during braking (which, although should not cause lock with ABS system, would reduce braking efficiency nonetheless). I am not sure if dot5.1 has different hygroscopic properties or not.

If they are the same between dot5 and dot5.1, that means although they are significantly better in high maintenance field (e.g., racetrack), they are not as good as dot4 for everyday life. Since Ducati would make recommendations based on mostly road use, they would choose dot4.

Personally i am using Motul RBF600 dot4.
 
Hey Guys,

what colour is your DOT 4? I bought the shell advance and it is blue!!!
Wondering what the dealer put in my reservoirs (yellow). I read somewhere it does not matter as the oil is actually transparent...and then dyed..

thx
 
So why does Ducati recommend DOT 4 ? If 5.1 is better for ABS systems then why does ducati not recommend that ? Motul 600 is a Dot 4 with a pretty high boiling point.
What is the source of your info for 5.1 design parameters ?


I work in the industry, and I know more about this stuff than most people (even in the industry). I have multiple sources.
What I have stated in my previous post is absolutely factual, and is not widely known.
You could probably Google it and find the info yourself in obscure places on the net.

Like I said DOT 5.1 is basically the same as DOT 4. It's just designed to perform better under all circumstances/conditions in ABS systems.
DOT 4 will work just fine in ABS systems.
Some DOT 4 fluids are much much better than others.

DUCATI most likely doesn't think DOT 5.1 is necessary in their bikes, and they think DOT 4 is more than adequate. I personally would be inclined to agree.
This makes sense as a standard servicing requirement.

It's just that I have DOT 5.1 in stock, and it's much less susceptible to discolouration than DOT 4 (in accordance with one of it's primary design parameters).
So I use it instead of buying DOT 4 for the bikes and I don't have to change discoloured brake/clutch fluid as much, and helps to use up dregs left over in the bottles so it's not sitting around.
For all intents and purposes it works the same as DOT 4 only potentially better in every regard, and is more cost effective for me:)
IMO, It's also better to keep brake fluid on constant stock rotation rather than having bottles sitting around for too long as I buy it by the box full, like I do with motor oils and filters.
It's cheaper;)
It may be coincidental, but I also don't have to repeatedly bleed any part of my brake/clutch system due to poor performance like others do;)
So i'll stick with what's working perfectly for me:)

Remember this is the first time that DUCATI has put ABS on a superbike.
Car manufacturers have been integrating ABS, EBD and ESC systems into cars for over a decade, and I think they know a thing or two about their requirements;)
To date, the "only" bike manufacturer that's had extensive experience in this area of technology is BMW. "At this point in time" they still don't specify DOT 5.1 for their bikes.
Read into it what ever you like.
But DOT4 and DOT 5.1 share the same technology and are basically interchangeable except for where DOT 5.1 is specified by the manufacturer (like it is stated in the owner manual for my car).
Then for me, it's probably not a good idea to use DOT 4.
The only exception for me is in my work ute where the old DOT 3 is required, so I buy it as cheap as possible where ever I can get it 1 bottle at a time;)

If you read what I said in my previous post, one may well encounter a DOT4 fluid from brand "A" which has a higher boiling point than brand "B" DOT 5.1.

Either way we generally don't keep the fluid in our bikes long enough for the boiling point to become compromised by water absorption.
Water absorption and heat are directly responsible for brake fluid degradation.
So in that regard, I should imagine the ultimate boiling point is not an issue for us.
We could possibly run DOT 3 fluid and get away with it:eek:

Use what ever you like in your machines.
Personally I wouldn't pour Motul anything down the throat of a dead cat.
It's all so overrated and priced accordingly.
The Motul marketing machine is better than Castrol's;)
IMO Motul is very poor value for money.
Even though I do strictly use only one Castrol product:eek:
 
My understanding is that dot5 is a lot more hygroscopic compared to dot4, meaning it will absorp water/moisture significantly faster than dot4. Moisture in the brake fluid can cause dangerous vapor lock during braking (which, although should not cause lock with ABS system, would reduce braking efficiency nonetheless). I am not sure if dot5.1 has different hygroscopic properties or not.

If they are the same between dot5 and dot5.1, that means although they are significantly better in high maintenance field (e.g., racetrack), they are not as good as dot4 for everyday life. Since Ducati would make recommendations based on mostly road use, they would choose dot4.

Personally i am using Motul RBF600 dot4.


I'm confused now.

Sorry:(
It seems to me you have the bull by the tail.

Are you confusing DOT 5 with DOT 5.1?

Dot 5.1 has the exact same Hygroscopic and Compressibility properties as DOT 3/4.
This makes this group of fluids best suited to industry standard service intervals of 2 years.


DOT 5 fluid is Silicon based and is not Hygroscopic.
It generally has equivalent boiling point properties of DOT 5.1.
DOT 5 fluid is "more" compressible(spongier) than DOT 3/4/5.1 fluid.

Because of it's higher tendency to compress, DOT 5 fluid is absolutely not recommended for use in any ABS braking systems. AT ALL.
It is readily possible to convert a DOT 3/4/5.1 system to a DOT 5 silicon fluid, but very difficult to go the other way and ensure reliable/safe/consistent operation without total replacement of brake components as a precaution.
Clutch systems may be the exception as they're less critical to safety.

Not to confuse things.
The only other exception to this is Castrol's SRF brake fluid.
It's a patented Silicon Ester formulation and according to Castrol, it's miscible with DOT3/4/ fluid.

DOT 5 fluid is basically obsolete and is virtually relegated to use as a service fluid for existing systems that were originally designed around it.
 
Hey Guys,

what colour is your DOT 4? I bought the shell advance and it is blue!!!
Wondering what the dealer put in my reservoirs (yellow). I read somewhere it does not matter as the oil is actually transparent...and then dyed..

thx

I think you're right onto something there;)
Some dealers like to use a different colour fluid from the factory fill colour
That's so it's largely evident to everybody, that the fluid has been changed at service.

Mine is light amber, much like the factory fill fluid in DUCATI's.
Castrol DOT 4 is a little bit darker shade of amber.

I have seen purple recently, and of course there's the good old fashioned green colour fluid as well:)
 
I work in the industry, and I know more about this stuff than most people (even in the industry). I have multiple sources.
What I have stated in my previous post is absolutely factual, and is not widely known.
You could probably Google it and find the info yourself in obscure places on the net.

Like I said DOT 5.1 is basically the same as DOT 4. It's just designed to perform better under all circumstances/conditions in ABS systems.
DOT 4 will work just fine in ABS systems.
Some DOT 4 fluids are much much better than others.

DUCATI most likely doesn't think DOT 5.1 is necessary in their bikes, and they think DOT 4 is more than adequate. I personally would be inclined to agree.
This makes sense as a standard servicing requirement.

It's just that I have DOT 5.1 in stock, and it's much less susceptible to discolouration than DOT 4 (in accordance with one of it's primary design parameters).
So I use it instead of buying DOT 4 for the bikes and I don't have to change discoloured brake/clutch fluid as much, and helps to use up dregs left over in the bottles so it's not sitting around.
For all intents and purposes it works the same as DOT 4 only potentially better in every regard, and is more cost effective for me:)
IMO, It's also better to keep brake fluid on constant stock rotation rather than having bottles sitting around for too long as I buy it by the box full, like I do with motor oils and filters.
It's cheaper;)
It may be coincidental, but I also don't have to repeatedly bleed any part of my brake/clutch system due to poor performance like others do;)
So i'll stick with what's working perfectly for me:)

Remember this is the first time that DUCATI has put ABS on a superbike.
Car manufacturers have been integrating ABS, EBD and ESC systems into cars for over a decade, and I think they know a thing or two about their requirements;)
To date, the "only" bike manufacturer that's had extensive experience in this area of technology is BMW. "At this point in time" they still don't specify DOT 5.1 for their bikes.
Read into it what ever you like.
But DOT4 and DOT 5.1 share the same technology and are basically interchangeable except for where DOT 5.1 is specified by the manufacturer (like it is stated in the owner manual for my car).
Then for me, it's probably not a good idea to use DOT 4.
The only exception for me is in my work ute where the old DOT 3 is required, so I buy it as cheap as possible where ever I can get it 1 bottle at a time;)

If you read what I said in my previous post, one may well encounter a DOT4 fluid from brand "A" which has a higher boiling point than brand "B" DOT 5.1.

Either way we generally don't keep the fluid in our bikes long enough for the boiling point to become compromised by water absorption.
Water absorption and heat are directly responsible for brake fluid degradation.
So in that regard, I should imagine the ultimate boiling point is not an issue for us.
We could possibly run DOT 3 fluid and get away with it:eek:

Use what ever you like in your machines.
Personally I wouldn't pour Motul anything down the throat of a dead cat.
It's all so overrated and priced accordingly.
The Motul marketing machine is better than Castrol's;)
IMO Motul is very poor value for money.
Even though I do strictly use only one Castrol product:eek:


I have multiple sources.

It would be good for you to reference some of them. You spent a lot of time typing a response without answering the question.

If you provide the source of your information, I can read up on it.
 
If you think it took a lot of time to type the response.
You should try Googling it for yourself as I suggested in my earlier post;)
Then you'll see how long it will take to trawl through the protracted nature of the information you get.
Let alone make sense of it all.
It's taken me years of research and trial and error, to pull it all together in a manner that's practical in application.

I gave you the simplified/abridged version of what I know about it.
You certainly didn't get it all.
What more do you want?
Some of the info I have to hand is on file in hard copy, and is of commercial in confidence in nature.
Some of the info is gleaned from in depth discussions with similarly minded people in the industry, who wouldn't normally be bothered to take the time to speak with members of the public on these matters.
Some of the info available on the net is sadly a bit contradictory and potentially confusing as well, and at times serves to muddy the waters a little too much.
Some of the info is tinged with foggy marketing BS and not really all that forthcoming.

That should be sufficient for you IMO.
As I said, Google it and knock yourself out mate;)
Then you can work it all out for yourself like everybody else.

Also if you're going to use Motul Brake fluid, I would suggest you look at their RBF 660
 
Last edited:
If you think it took a lot of time to type the response.
You should try Googling it for yourself as I suggested in my earlier post;)
Then you'll see how long it will take to trawl through the protracted nature of the information you get.
Let alone make sense of it all.
It's taken me years of research and trial and error, to pull it all together in a manner that's practical in application.

I gave you the simplified/abridged version of what I know about it.
You certainly didn't get it all.
What more do you want?
Some of the info I have to hand is on file in hard copy, and is of commercial in confidence in nature.
Some of the info is gleaned from in depth discussions with similarly minded people in the industry, who wouldn't normally be bothered to take the time to speak with members of the public on these matters.
Some of the info available on the net is sadly a bit contradictory and potentially confusing as well, and at times serves to muddy the waters a little too much.
Some of the info is tinged with foggy marketing BS and not really all that forthcoming.

That should be sufficient for you IMO.
As I said, Google it and knock yourself out mate;)
Then you can work it all out for yourself like everybody else.

Also if you're going to use Motul Brake fluid, I would suggest you look at their RBF 660


Yes will do that. Will check out the differences in the motul stuff. After all that though, I still do not know why Mr Ducati recommends dot 4 instead of dot anything else. I will contact them and ask.
 
I should imagine that DUCATI deem Dot 4 fluid is simply fit for purpose.
Nothing more than that:)
As I've said earlier, I would tend to agree with that assessment in the main.

The other thing to consider is that the critical components are outsourced from Brembo.
I would hazard a guess and say that DUCATI are merely following suit and falling into line with Brembos' recommendations. This would simply be to avoid reinventing the wheel and potentially opening themselves up to liability.
It's quite possible that Brembo themselves haven't evaluated the functionality/durability of their products with any fluid other than DOT 4 exclusively.


It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened in the automotive world.
For example, to give some background on how things can evolve.

Tremec as an OEM, still recommend Dexron II/III ATF for a lot of their manual transmissions as the only approved lube.
GM have historically fallen into line to only recommend Dexron III ATF, and it was until recent times also the factory fill.

ATF is sadly, a garbage gear lube for a manual transmission. But fine for synchro operation.
It's been a worsening problem over the years, especially since engine power outputs have gone up along with vehicle curb weights.
In a large capacity automotive manual transmission lubed with ATF, this is a recipe for disaster in the long term when driven hard.
It's mostly fine to get one out of warranty, after that you're on your own.

Drilling down into the issue, it's revealed the GM recommendation has stood until recently(but Tremec haven't changed).
This is because Tremec themselves have never evaluated their transmissions that are spec'd for ATF, with any other type of lube other than Dexron III:(
And it's as simple as that.

GM seem to have been trying to address the issue of durability of the transmissions in 2 distinct ways.

Firstly by increasing the nominal lube capacity of the transmission by 10%.
It's sort of an application of the "deep sump principal".

Secondly, since their Dexron III spec was made obsolete and superseded by Dexron VI, they have been forced to move to a different lube with similar characteristics to Dexron III. They've reportedly just done a bit of tweaking to the old Dexron III formulation.
It's now a sort of a Super Dexron III;) for use in manuals that previously required Dexron III ATF.
It's now got a different name/part number.
Apparently this new lube has improved manual transmission durability, whilst retaining effective synchro operation.
And also made it more suitable for what is now the industry norm of "Filled for life" transmissions.
We will see;)


Party on:)
 
Last edited:

Register CTA

Register on Ducati Forum! This sidebar will go away, and you will see fewer ads.

Recent Discussions

Back
Top