FREE Suspension Setup advice from an expert

@shigeru, that is odd as the bike has plenty of trail. What tires/pressure are you running? Also what is your weight w/o gear?

roadracerx said:

I am happy to see that you realized there IS a difference between the diameter(s) for the V3 vs. 200/55 TD. 7.5 mm is the actual difference in radius....we are not worried about diameter because we are only dealing with the height from the axle out.

The oil weight and height are interesting and I would like to hear how you like it.

If you are using one, how far from the bottom of the fork is your travel indicator? I think you mean 3 clicks out with respect to your suspension settings....seems like this is the opposite of what you are thinking....have you pushed on the bike to see what the compression feels like and is this balanced with the rear? How is your tire wear.

Pressures seem fine.

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Yes, you're right, 3 clicks out from full stiff instead of turns. I did push on the bike to attempt to get the front and rear moving at close to the same rate, but I don't think I'm great at judging that yet. It felt like it was in the right ballpark at least.

I was happy with the fork oil changes. With the stock oil/level and 3 clicks out from full stiff on compression, the zip tie was at 15mm from the fork casting. After the change to 10wt oil at 170mm air gap, I felt happy with 14 clicks out which put me at 20mm from the fork casting. I think the fork bottoms out at 10mm from the casting, but I forgot to measure it while I had it apart. Fork dive under braking felt smoother and more controlled. I also felt more comfortable trail braking.

The rear ride height change to 317mm was a huge improvement in turn-in effort with very little effect on stability. Halfway through the weekend I switched from the Pirelli TDs to Michelin Power Slick Evos and turn in felt even better, as that change lowered the front 1mm and raised the rear about 3mm.

Initially had some cold tear combined with rebound tear on the rear Pirellis, but I sorted the rebound tear prior to putting the slicks on. Tire wear on the slicks looked really good with the exception of me needing to get to full throttle earlier. Coming off of an R6, opening the throttle is a bit intimidating.

@wortdog, seems like you are happy with the direction you have taken. Any other questions or concerns?

roadracerx said:

I have found in life that you generally get what you pay for...my aim is to give something worth a lot away for FREE - on this forum. In person tuning is a different story... I am posting this thread to give back and to help people because I read through some of these threads and I routinely see information that is not accurate.

On this thread I will answer questions to help sort out your 848/1098/1198 and all Panigale setup basics and/or issues you may have.

I have been setting up bikes for 20 years for all sorts of riders and I have been very successful in doing so. I started down the path of learning how to do pretty much everything on my own because I didn't want to have to rely on others to fix my bike and I don't want flat rate mechanics who don't care about my safety cutting corners; I have experienced both situations more than once.

I have learned from folks like Dave Moss and David Behrend and setup supermoto, motocross, flat track, mini motard, road race and street bike

I am a WERA and AFM racer with top 5 finishes in expert superstock/superbike classes on bikes that I build from scratch and I even won some championships on Ducati when I was a younger man.

I am starting this thread to help so let's get to work...

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What tire pressure would you recommend on my 1299. Im running Metzler Recetec RR K3's

cycler said:

What tire pressure would you recommend on my 1299. Im running Metzler Recetec RR K3's

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First off, why did you switch to the Metzeler's? Is it for tire life? Have you compensated for the geometry change when switching to the Metzeler tire? 200/55 or 200/60 rear? The K3 is the harder compound so you are compromising grip over the stock tire and the stock SP V3 is much taller than even the 200/60 K3.

Metzeler and Pirelli are affiliated and I personally use Metzeler SM (supermoto) tires and they "feel" like Pirellis. In general, for road use I recommend about 32 PSI front (cold) and 28 PSI rear (cold). For track day use I leave the front at 32 PSI cold and don't worry about it. The rear I generally start at 25 PSI cold and immediately check when coming off track. The rear should be 28-29 and NO higher; if so, bring it back down to 28 and re-check again after next session. Once it stabilizes at 28-29 then leave it alone.

I would recommend you go back to the stock tire for the V4/S/R. You won't find a better tire anywhere and the geometry changes needed when switching to a smaller diameter rear tire are not really worth the extra mileage in my opinion.

2012 1199s
Pirelli Rosso Corsa II's
6'2" 203lbs without gear.

Normally run 28psi hot for track, 33psi street

The bike feels lazy af when transitioning on the track. Like, I can lean over so far but then I have to literally pull the bike down to go faster. What kind of suspension settings should I have? I am pretty green on this stuff, I run mid pack during track days in intermediate, I use to be faster but age is catching up on me

Happy to talk via text if its easier.


Brandon

When moving from street tires to Pirelli slicks on an 1199, you want to make the rear shock length shorter right? If so, how many turns? Since the tire is increasing from 55 to 60. And should preload be adjusted?

roadracerx said:

First off, why did you switch to the Metzeler's? Is it for tire life? Have you compensated for the geometry change when switching to the Metzeler tire? 200/55 or 200/60 rear? The K3 is the harder compound so you are compromising grip over the stock tire and the stock SP V3 is much taller than even the 200/60 K3.

Metzeler and Pirelli are affiliated and I personally use Metzeler SM (supermoto) tires and they "feel" like Pirellis. In general, for road use I recommend about 32 PSI front (cold) and 28 PSI rear (cold). For track day use I leave the front at 32 PSI cold and don't worry about it. The rear I generally start at 25 PSI cold and immediately check when coming off track. The rear should be 28-29 and NO higher; if so, bring it back down to 28 and re-check again after next session. Once it stabilizes at 28-29 then leave it alone.

I would recommend you go back to the stock tire for the V4/S/R. You won't find a better tire anywhere and the geometry changes needed when switching to a smaller diameter rear tire are not really worth the extra mileage in my opinion.

Click to expand...

I switched to Metzelers because Ive always ran Metzelers on bikes once it was time for tire changes and they always felt great. I have Metzeler M7 RR's on my S1000R, and I just put on the Metzeler Cruisetec's on my Harley Dyna which I love, especially running them with a pair of 13.5 inc rear ODC Monza piggy back shocks and the ODC Monza 2.0 inverted front end with a pair of Brembo .484 108mm radial brake calipers.

I like these Metezeler Racetec RR's yet I dont love them and I wish I bought the K2's over the K3's. I figured they were a medium compound and would last longer than the Pirellis. Ive ridden my friends 1299 with K2 tires and the overall handling feels better. Maybe it has to do with the fact we weigh the same and his suspension was set up a few days ago properly but the bike still felt better with the K2's before he dialed his suspension in. My bike with the K3's doesnt feel as stable as his 1299. I feel like when it goes into turns and comes out its not as stable as his 1299 and the front end feels a bit chattery if thats even a word. My suspension isnt dialed in and i bought the slacker digital sag checker to help me set it up.

Regarding setting up the sag on the 1299. Where and how do I start with the rear? Is it that collar right below the threads? I will use the slacker digital unit to help me set up the sag on the bike. Same with the front end. Where would I adjust the preload to set the sag up on the front.

And lastly. Setting the rebound and compression for the front. Is there a certain formula for this regarding rider weight? Would I dial them both back to 0 then turn them a certain amount of turns and then start adjusting up or down depending on how I like the feel?

You mentioned whether I compensated for the geometry change because of the rear tire. The original rear Pirelli size was 200/55/17 and the rear K3 that I have now is also 200/55/17. Would I still to compensate for geometry? Another reason I use the Metzelers is that my brother is a dealer so he gets them for me at cost. He isnt a parts unlimited dealer so he doesnt get Pirellis. Tucker Rocky used to sell Pirellis up until I think a year and half to two years ago. But I will be swapping out the K3's for the K2's in the next week or two. How are the K2's in comparison with the Pirellis? From what I understand Pirelli bought out Metzeler

Twisted10 said:

2012 1199s
Pirelli Rosso Corsa II's
6'2" 203lbs without gear.

Normally run 28psi hot for track, 33psi street

The bike feels lazy af when transitioning on the track. Like, I can lean over so far but then I have to literally pull the bike down to go faster. What kind of suspension settings should I have?

Click to expand...

Brandon, this is not enough information to tell you exactly where you should be but it seems clear that your settings are not ideal. What size rear tire? When you stated you normally run 28 hot for track and 33 for street - I am not clear on what this means....are you only talking about the rear tire? Have you adjusted the suspension on your bike? If so, what was done?

rja4z3 said:

When moving from street tires to Pirelli slicks on an 1199, you want to make the rear shock length shorter right? If so, how many turns? Since the tire is increasing from 55 to 60. And should preload be adjusted?

Click to expand...

No change in preload is required and based on skill level I generally don't recommend any change in preload from street to track as bike/rider sag is what it is. Just because you are on track does not change that. I can't tell you exactly how many turns you need to get the correct ride height as you need to measure this with a special tool but you can take some tape and mark a line and measure to maintain the same ride height but this IS NOT EASY. You have to put the bike on peg stands, loosen the lock nut on the bottom of the shock then remove the bottom shock bolt that is attached to the motor. If you try to adjust the ride height without doing this and you don't hold the preload lock rings in place you will end up adjusting the preload by accident as you lengthen or shorten the shock length.

cycler said:

I switched to Metzelers because Ive always ran Metzelers...

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So there is a lot to unpack here but if you like the way your friend's bike works you might want to start with a setup from a professional.

You will need many tools, stands, etc to do this work properly.

Also, with respect to tires, you get what you pay for....I understand you get a deal on the Metzelers so for sure switch to the K2s from the RRs.

The most important thing you can do is get the sag set properly then if your rebound or compression has been adjusted then go to the owner's manual and set your "clickers" back to factory settings.

What is your weight without gear?

Do you have a 1299S or base model 1299?

roadracerx said:

Brandon, this is not enough information to tell you exactly where you should be but it seems clear that your settings are not ideal. What size rear tire? When you stated you normally run 28 hot for track and 33 for street - I am not clear on what this means....are you only talking about the rear tire? Have you adjusted the suspension on your bike? If so, what was done?

Click to expand...

200/55 rear.

28psi in both tires when they are hot on the track, 33psi for the street.

All I have done is adjust some of the electronic suspension settings.

@Twisted, ok so let's fix the tire pressure!

Without tire warmers....

32 PSI front no matter if you are riding on the street or track - pretty simple.

28 PSI rear on street

25 PSI rear on track, not to exceed 29 PSI hot off track.

If you use tire warmers then let me know...

What changes have you made to the suspension settings?

Which bike are we talking about here? The 2012 1199 Tricolor or a 1299S?!

roadracerx said:

@Twisted, ok so let's fix the tire pressure!

Without tire warmers....

32 PSI front no matter if you are riding on the street or track - pretty simple.

28 PSI rear on street

25 PSI rear on track, not to exceed 29 PSI hot off track.

If you use tire warmers then let me know...

What changes have you made to the suspension settings?

Which bike are we talking about here? The 2012 1199 Tricolor or a 1299S?!

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2012 1199s tricolor.

no warmers.

suspension setup is as follows:

front compression 10
front rebound 10
rear compression 10
rear rebound 4

Thanks!

Twisted10 said:

2012 1199s tricolor.

no warmers.

suspension setup is as follows:

front compression 10
front rebound 10
rear compression 10
rear rebound 4

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Try this....

DTC: 2 or 3
DWC: 2
EBC: 3
ABS: 1

(Race of track use)
Front Compression: 8
Front Rebound: 10
Rear Compression: 10
Rear Rebound: 14

Make sure you follow the tire pressure settings I recommended and I would like to know where your bike and rider sag numbers please.

roadracerx said:

@louis041, ok so I recommend 40 mm front and 30 mm rear rider sag. Bike sag should be about 25 mm front and 12-15 mm rear. Remember to take the average between measurements of you sitting on the bike with the suspension compressed and released slowly and suspension lifted and released slowly.

RaceTech explains this here

Your pressures are a bit off. Try the following....

Street pressures for Pirelli SP/TD: set at 32 PSI front and 28 rear COLD

Track pressures for Pirelli SP/TD: set at 32 PSI front COLD or 34 PSI hot off the warmer, set rear at 25 PSI COLD or 28 PSI HOT off the warmer. When you come in from your session IMMEDIATELY check the rear. It will likely be above 28, bring it back down to 28. After the next session check it again and repeat this process until the pressure does not go above 28 PSI HOT OFF THE TRACK.

Generally, most riders do not brake hard enough to generate enough tire flex to raise the pressure more than 1 PSI so you really don't need to worry about front pressure once you set it in the AM.

Here is some Pirelli info

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Question for you. I've ridden most of my life, dirtbikes from the age of 7 and then streetbikes from the age of 19. About to turn 43. I was always taught that a tire with lower pressure allows more grip, so always have slightly less pressure in the front than the rear. That way the rear should slide before the front does. With all the forums I've been on, I see mixed advice whether lower in the front or the rear.

What is your reasoning for having lower in the rear than the front as you suggested above? I'm really not technical in this area but would love to know more. Likewise, I have my friends set the suspension/tires on dirtbikes when we race motocross even to this day. lol.

CWP76 said:

Question for you. I've ridden most of my life, dirtbikes from the age of 7 and then streetbikes from the age of 19. About to turn 43. I was always taught that a tire with lower pressure allows more grip, so always have slightly less pressure in the front than the rear. That way the rear should slide before the front does. With all the forums I've been on, I see mixed advice whether lower in the front or the rear.

What is your reasoning for having lower in the rear than the front as you suggested above? I'm really not technical in this area but would love to know more. Likewise, I have my friends set the suspension/tires on dirtbikes when we race motocross even to this day. lol.

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My reasoning is very simple, it is exactly what Dunlop and Pirelli, etc. recommend. Also, the tires will show this by way of a hot tear (under-inflation) or cold tear (over-inflation).

Here are some examples of those recommendations...

Dunlop

Pirelli

Any advice or recommendations I give here is based on science and testing; I suspect the advice you were given was from a time before tire warmers and significantly different tire technology. We are about the same age but I have never heard one should run the front at a lower pressure. While I do agree that running less pressure CAN get you more grip....when doing so on the front the tire looses its shape and makes steering feel VERY weird and with the rear you are likely to cause a tear.

With motocross I run 13 PSI on Dunlop MX32 front AND rear.
Mini-motard 21 front and 20 rear
Supermoto 28 front and 24 rear
Street bike 32 front and 28 rear

....notice the front is ALWAYS a little higher.

The rise in pressure due to use is more significant for the rear but even hot off track the rear is never higher than the front.

Has this worked for you? Maybe give my suggestions a try....you might like it?!

Racing sport bikes on race tracks since 2000 I can say the tire vendors are there to help and their advice is good. It has always worked for me. Dunlop, Pirelli, Bridgestone and Michelin all make great tires with slightly different characteristics but a front that slides before the rear is NEVER something I want from a tire. Some people are front-end riders and some are rear. MX guys tend to be rear-end riders but I can't ride fast if I don't have confidence in the front so the shape of the tire which is determined by pressure and sidewall stiffness is vital. I am fine with the rear sliding but front end slides are hard to save and usually happen so fast there is no chance to do so, at least on the asphalt.

roadracerx said:

My reasoning is very simple, it is exactly what Dunlop and Pirelli, etc. recommend. Also, the tires will show this by way of a hot tear (under-inflation) or cold tear (over-inflation).

Here are some examples of those recommendations...

Dunlop

Pirelli

Any advice or recommendations I give here is based on science and testing; I suspect the advice you were given was from a time before tire warmers and significantly different tire technology. We are about the same age but I have never heard one should run the front at a lower pressure. While I do agree that running less pressure CAN get you more grip....when doing so on the front the tire looses its shape and makes steering feel VERY weird and with the rear you are likely to cause a tear.

With motocross I run 13 PSI on Dunlop MX32 front AND rear.
Mini-motard 21 front and 20 rear
Supermoto 28 front and 24 rear
Street bike 32 front and 28 rear

....notice the front is ALWAYS a little higher.

The rise in pressure due to use is more significant for the rear but even hot off track the rear is never higher than the front.

Has this worked for you? Maybe give my suggestions a try....you might like it?!

Racing sport bikes on race tracks since 2000 I can say the tire vendors are there to help and their advice is good. It has always worked for me. Dunlop, Pirelli, Bridgestone and Michelin all make great tires with slightly different characteristics but a front that slides before the rear is NEVER something I want from a tire. Some people are front-end riders and some are rear. MX guys tend to be rear-end riders but I can't ride fast if I don't have confidence in the front so the shape of the tire which is determined by pressure and sidewall stiffness is vital. I am fine with the rear sliding but front end slides are hard to save and usually happen so fast there is no chance to do so, at least on the asphalt.

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Thanks mate. Appreciate the feedback. I'm going to try your recommended street pressures and see how she feels. I do know my dirtbike pressures always vary depending on the track we ride. One of my pals is an ex-AMA Supercross Pro, very handy to have around to aid with set up. And well, I have one of his ex-race bikes, which is nice. lol.

Is the expert still providing advice?

Yes sir, how can I help?