Hard starting

double0 said:

What's your explanation for those individuals? Bad luck?

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I'm not going to start to make statements about someone else's bike problems. I'm only going to give inexpensive/reversible suggestions that might repair their bike based on my own experiences. There are warranties otherwise.

Warp Racer said:

I gather you're battery charge is okay with all this? Cranks over fine or slows down quickly. Perhaps add a battery tender like a CTEK to the list.

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No problems with the battery.

I have a tender but generally don't need to use it. The problem occurs after riding it hard then stopping.

SOULRIDER said:

Odd because on my "S" when I had the charcoal canister removed the problem ceased.

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Same here....

Ok one last time. take it to the dealer they will reset the throttle sensor position (TPS). Ducati mechs admits that this is a know problem with the 1199. There fix according to the there bulletin is resetting the TPS for hard starts. Mine started to get worse over time had my canister removed and TPS reset all is good now and I haven't had one single hard start after the bike get hot/cold, long rides or short rides.

That's exactly what I had done during my first service when it was recommended to me on here. Resetting the TPS seems to have fixed it for me as well. One hard start since 1500 miles ago feels like a fix to me. I'll settle for that.

I didn't read the TPS fix before now. Good to know if my problem comes back.

My dealer did not know of this. For that matter they haven't heard of any cures for any problems I've brought them.

ScrapperX said:

Ok one last time. take it to the dealer they will reset the throttle sensor position (TPS). Ducati mechs admits that this is a know problem with the 1199. There fix according to the there bulletin is resetting the TPS for hard starts. Mine started to get worse over time had my canister removed and TPS reset all is good now and I haven't had one single hard start after the bike get hot/cold, long rides or short rides.

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Off to the dealer then,

Thanks for the input.

pbarry said:

I tried a bit of throttle and the first time it backfired and a flame came out the exhaust

The 2nd time a big puff of smoke came out from underneath the fuel tank.

Pretty embarrassing!

It happened at the dealers once and they said never to touch the throttle.

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1199 dreamer said:

I was told also, do not touch the throttle when starting. I was also told to allow the bike to idle for 20-30 seconds before killing the engine when I'm parking her, "not to fly in hot and kill it".. I haven't had any issues yet....

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if you have chance to get accustomed to the ECU wiring harness diagram of the 1199, you'll realized (similar to past fuel injected ducatis), the system does not have a cam sensor.Meaning the ECU rely on the individual MAP sensor(s) to trace the intake stroke and togather with the Engine speed/rpm sensor, then ECU will be able to differentiate compression (upward stroke) and exhaust stroke (also another upward stroke of piston)which are located at different 360deg cycle or phases of 720deg or 1 complete engine cycle.(4 stroke).Spark is delivered properly and at the right upward stroke (i.e compression) close to the TDC with some ignition advances,then the engine fires-up.

My point is opening the throttle blade while cranking the starter-motor would "disturb" the pressure in the intake manifold and may confuse the ECU in detecting the intake stroke (due to changing "dips" of the MAP sensor's reading) properly which is needed to trace the subsequent compression stoke to deliver spark at the rightly predicted upward stroke.

should it fail to fire-up,yet the ECU does not give-up, as there will always be re-tries by differentiating cranking speed (<500rpm) and successful start-up idle speed (appx.1000-2000rom) with the speed/rpm sensor.

VTR1000(SP1/2) or RVT1000(SP1/2) or RC51 depending on which part of the globe you are from ,comes with phase or CAM sensor too yet it has only a single or shared MAP sensor primary for reading mass of air entering the cylinders compared to that of Ducati's which individual cylinders have thier own MAP sensor, therefore could be utilize to predict engine phases for each.

Commonly,inline engines comes with phase sensor which sense on camshafts position therefore independent from throttle blade opening as compared to MAP sensor.

In most cases,Inlines start easily...

Prince Albert said:

They make this for the 1*98 series, I wonder if there is one for the 1199 ?

Ducati 848 1098 1198 Starting Starter Upgrade Kit Bike Starts in 1 Second | eBay

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Yes. The same seller has one listed for the Panigale for $90.

double0 said:

I don't get why people insist on removing the charcoal canister when it's obvious this hard start issue still occurs with or without it. It's all in your head. Problem is somewhere else unbeknownst to mankind!

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I've only worked on a few hundred Ducs, so I probably know a lot less than you about Ducatis. All I can tell you for sure is that the thing starts without the charcoal canister a lot better than it did with it. I assume it's because the tank builds some internal pressure when it's vented through the canister rather than to atmosphere...and that maybe this bit of extra pressure has an effect on the way the pump picks up fuel making the doggone thing hard to start when it's hot. This is reinforced by the fact that it's more prevalent when temperatures near 100°F increasing fuel evaporation inside the tank.

I have performed no scientific evaluation of this claim, but empirical evidence is enough for me.

Cloner,

I'm not doubting what's worked for you and some others, hypothetically speaking.

What's reason enough for me to doubt this as an actual cure is the fact that people without it are still experiencing this problem and others are not experiencing this problem even with the canister still in place. That is all.

double0 said:

Cloner,

I'm not doubting what's worked for you and some others, hypothetically speaking.

What's reason enough for me to doubt this as an actual cure is the fact that people without it are still experiencing this problem and others are not experiencing this problem even with the canister still in place. That is all.

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Maybe not a root cause, but almost certainly a factor. Not all problems are single variable, nor are they all linear!

Fair enough.

SOULRIDER said:

Odd because on my "S" when I had the charcoal canister removed the problem ceased.

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I will second this finding.

Same with my S. Removed Canister and starting is no problem in any condition now. Also, check your air filter's condition.

Mine did exactly the same.

I had some trouble with starting from cold after having the Akra system installed. Aparently though the intelligent ECU had to re-learn the fuelling with the new exhaust. Low and behold after a few more miles and some cold starts it's fine.

Put any new bits on lately?

I have been following this thread along with others on the same topic with particular interest. I have been involved in a similar debate regarding the 899.

I am looking into keeping my anniversary 796 and adding either the 1199R or a modified 899 to my stable.

As for the starting issue, my 796 exhibited similar symptoms until the dealer suggested and subsequently removed the canister. Since then, I have not had any significant starting issues.

It seems that for all the throttle and ECU recommendations for solving the issue on this bike, it is not unique to this model and can be seen on most if not all Ducati bikes meeting CARB regulations - essentially making them 50 state bikes.

I am no expert, nor am I as experienced as clearly many of you are on the subject of bikes, engines, and the history of Ducati. All I do have is anecdotal experience as to how removing the canister improved reliability on my 2013 Monster.

Regards,

Sinjin.

Cloner said:

I've only worked on a few hundred Ducs, so I probably know a lot less than you about Ducatis. All I can tell you for sure is that the thing starts without the charcoal canister a lot better than it did with it. I assume it's because the tank builds some internal pressure when it's vented through the canister rather than to atmosphere...and that maybe this bit of extra pressure has an effect on the way the pump picks up fuel making the doggone thing hard to start when it's hot. This is reinforced by the fact that it's more prevalent when temperatures near 100°F increasing fuel evaporation inside the tank.

I have performed no scientific evaluation of this claim, but empirical evidence is enough for me.

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Removing the charcoal canister is equivalent to opening the gas cap before starting, right ??? Well, in my case, it doesn't cure the problem.

pbarry said:

I tried a bit of throttle and the first time it backfired and a flame came out the exhaust

The 2nd time a big puff of smoke came out from underneath the fuel tank.

Pretty embarrassing!

It happened at the dealers once and they said never to touch the throttle.

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Just thought I would do an update. Been back to the dealers for the annual service and they have said the issue was fuel leaking from the throttle. They replaced the plugs and update the TPS all under warranty.

Hopefully we are on the right track.

xpercad said:

Removing the charcoal canister is equivalent to opening the gas cap before starting, right ??? Well, in my case, it doesn't cure the problem.

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Not so sure that it is...
I am not sure why exactly the canister may be involved, however just suppose that it retains fumes after the engine has been running a while and this somehow tricks the EFI into thinking that it doesn't require as much fuel to start, it will not necessarily be solved by venting it in the opposite direction.

My Monster would eventually start with the canister once I had almost run down the battery by periodically turning it over while hot. The symptoms just seemed to be similar to what you would expect to happen if the fuel was shut off.

We'll see how it goes until I remove the canister from my new 899.

You might also want to consider this:

Ducati Panigale Starter / Starting Upgrade, Bike starts in 1 second! | eBay

Fitted them on my last bikes and they make a HUGE difference. Not saying the canister is not your real issue here, but this kit will certainly help in any case.