Honda CBR1000RR-R SP 2024 vs V4R 2023

cl955 said:

Lithium battery about £100, non-ducati forged wheels around £2k.

I'm not that au fait with the price differences of Base vs S, but that should cover a rear shock and maybe a fork spring/setup? And you still have those parts which will hold min 60% of their value if you can bothered to remove them.

Click to expand...

About 6,500 Euros (around £5,400) difference.

So just over £3K for suspension, which is probably roughly what it would cost.

So the question would be whether you are actually getting better suspension than the stuff fitted to the S for probably around the same cost (without going silly on suspension of course). Probably easier to sell the S vs the base in future?

Steven31371 said:

It’s actually a misnomer saying the HRC kit and software is the WSBK stuff…most of those teams use Motec or magneti-marrelli?….both of which are extremely complicated. The HRC stuff is SUPPOSEDLY much more ergonomic to use, more self explanatory with fairly intuitive screens to navigate…we’ll see though. It translates from Japanese in interesting ways…for example there is a screen dedicated to “anti-jerk” that’s just managing throttle sensitivity by RPM and gear to make the throttle response more or less twitchy.

Pretty cool that you can do that though BY GEAR. So you can smooth the throttle in 2nd gear for pulling out of a corner and make it more aggressive in 4 through 5 etc…and you can manage slip control by corner segment…so corner entry, mid-corner, and corner exit slip can all be managed etc.

The screenshots of it do not look like hieroglyphs like the Motec stuff.




The guy who talked me into getting the Fireblade has the settings that some of the MotoAmerica teams were using for all that stuff in the vids.

Click to expand...

You can alter throttle pickup by map in the ducati software. Wouldn't be by each gear but by the map groupings, 1st, 2 and 3, then 4,5,6. You can also change the EBC values by map. The stock throttle mapping on the clowncar made it really hard to pick up the throttle mid corner jerk free (a jerk is the 2nd derivative of velocity). Frustrated me until I figured out how to change it.

First, will say I do not race, however I am a slow expert w/ N2 but consider myself more towards the top when it comes to systems and setup, my true hobby at almost 50. I have had the privilege of running Duc's 1299 and V4, and have my own RR-R.

Honda:

You need a Honda HRC kit to change sprocket or tire size in the ECU, no dash function. This is insane money comparted to what I paid for an ECU and harness for my R6, and the ECU came with a factory race tune on it. Aprilia has had dash calibration functions for at least 5 years now. I have a tune from BT Moto that works, but it is no where near as predictable as the Duc's with EVO and slide control. Not even close. The tune did allow me to run the more modern 200/65 rears and a 15/43 setup, which was impossible stock. OEM sprockets were setup for over 100mph in first... Stock tune is neutered/flat above 12k, you pull, just dont make any more rwhp. Intake packed full of foam from factory and the good stacks are another cost item. Horrible mid-range dip that is supposedly fixed by a full race header and pipe with a proper tune, a bit better stock for the 25MY. The dip before the power band makes the bike feel like a 225hp two stroke over 10k, very narrow rev range to work with. If stock the power will pour on around 9.5k and stop at 12k. You have to tune it and with that goes the warranty. Forget staying in that higher gear before the big sweeper.

Bike comes setup for 200/55...

The R6 makes more torque than the RR-R down low, bonkers. You need to keep the RR-R on the boil as it is dead below 8k and doesn't really wake up until 9.5k. From 11k to 15k the RR-R is absolutely bonkers and needs at least a former pro to keep something like this on the boil while running with aggression. The back will be all over the place.

The foot peg height on the RR-R is too high, like 4" less between the seat and peg than anything else I have ridden. Even with Lightech peg drops from the EU, it is still too high for comfort. Attack doesn't make rearsets either.

Cast wheels, still light though.

You cannot buy an engine from Honda... Same with Ducati. Warranty is only a year.

The bike is very well mannered on the street. Below 5k you would think you are putting around on a touring machine, unaware of the beast that lurks inside. QS might as well be an automate tranny it is so smooth.

Duc:

Factory tune is solid and the Ducati Performance Tune is a game changer. Run a speed calibration from the dash and head out.

Better mid-range torque and it comes on more linear.

Dry clutch can be costly and time consuming to deal with, wet clutch unless racing.

On MR12, it is the only bike that will pull on the RR-R, RR-R had 93 tune in my case.

OEM exhaust is stupid money.

Manual suspension, FKR fronts, like the Honda.

My .02, buy a V4S (wet clutch) with the FKR fronts, run it in manual mode, get the Ducati Performance Tune with a Termi exhaust and run the piss out of it.

The fast guys around me all run the S1000RRs for track days, 3-year warranty and BMW will replace an engine and even sell you one after the warranty is up. Anyone I know that has popped an engine around season 3 has had a warranty replacement, even with the BT Moto tune. Bren and Motorrad have a very close relationship.

.02

cl955 said:

I agree with everything you said, but are we convinced that the super duper new electronic suspension really is a good option for a track only bike though? Even at a moderate pace?

Click to expand...

People run these EC2 and 3 at super a super quick pace, like 2-3ish seconds of their WSBK PB lap times. The low friction coating doesn't go all they up the tubes on the EC, the foot is cast vs machined billet and the internals are setup a bit cheaper. With use there will be some stiction on the OEM Ohlin tubes vs the track dedicated options. You need to be on the ragged edge to notice a difference. Ohlins track tubes have material removed to provide some flex when leaned over, OEM Ohlin tubes are usually symmetrical. Everyone I know runs these suspensions in manual mode and the book values are super close.

cl955 said:

I agree with everything you said, but are we convinced that the super duper new electronic suspension really is a good option for a track only bike though? Even at a moderate pace?

Click to expand...

A friend of mine is a very fast ex-racer who is in the MA paddock every round and still does coaching, etc. told me that he can get within 2-3 seconds of SBK times on his 2023 V4S with electronic Ohlins. That's the 2.0 version. No way the 3.0 isnt good enough for the skill levels of posters here, imo. Not saying some might not prefer standard suspension, just giving some insight to what I've been told. And his bike has the exhaust and tune, thats it.

I'd agree on the 8k usd akra nonsense. Especially in California with the non-op procedure and only official Ducati distribution. I'm super happy that with the new v2 they are heading in a different direction. But for the v4,s,r, I'd always go with a spark or whatnot instead. I don't particularly like the style of the akra on the honda btw.

Steven31371 said:

The stock ECU on the 2024 and 2025 Fireblade is significantly upgraded and can do most of what the V4S ECU can do without the $800 programming update that REQUIRES the $7500 exhuast to get. So to surpass the capabilities of the Stock Honda ECU you need to spend $8300.

It costs about $4500 to put the HRC ECU on the Honda but now you have also far surpassed the capabilities of the Ducati ECU and software even with the required $8300 spend to get the trick software on the Ducati.

So only if you spend an additional $8300 the Ducati software and ECU surpass the stock Honda ECU and Software….but then you can spend $4500 on the Honda and get real WSBK software and tuning capabilities that FAR surpass what it takes $8300 with Ducati to get.

Also the Honda comes with the latest Stylema R iteration on the front calipers and the exact same suspension as the Ducati.

Click to expand...

Meant to reply earlier. All my comments are about previous Honda gen as well.


I guess at this stage, it would be good to run some numbers and compare 2, say to the level of advanced track-day rider. Sure Motec/HRC ECU opens up the door for adjustments that Ducati doesn't provide, but not many really use this at trackdays.

I bet Ducati will be more expensive for sure, I'm just curious by how much, 5-7k ?

panibadboy said:

Meant to reply earlier. All my comments are about previous Honda gen as well.


I guess at this stage, it would be good to run some numbers and compare 2, say to the level of advanced track-day rider. Sure Motec/HRC ECU opens up the door for adjustments that Ducati doesn't provide, but not many really use this at trackdays.

I bet Ducati will be more expensive for sure, I'm just curious by how much, 5-7k ?

Click to expand...

The HRC ECU opens up lots of adjustments (not sure most people would use most if it) and provides more power but also provides some things that you get with Ducati anyway - it seems the Ducati is more flexible on gearing and tyres and you can put different tyres on the Ducati and use the standard software to calibrate. @baggerman ’s comment about throttle map was interesting.

I have a feeling the Ducati might be marginally better if you don’t want to do much to it and maybe the Honda would be a good choice if you want to go crazy without necessarily having to break the bank. You can spec the Honda extremely well and quite easily compared to the Ducati, considering also the overall expenditure. I think the Honda looks good as well. Start adding an exhaust, etc, to the Ducati and it starts to get a bit silly. It’s not lacking in power but the weight reduction is nice (that’s the primary reason I put exhausts on mine).

It would be really interesting to see a comparison on track between the stock SP and V4S. A previous comparison I saw had the stock SP against the V4R with full exhaust… I wouldn’t be surprised if you get one winner with one type of rider and a different winner with a different type of rider…

chris838 said:

I don't particularly like the style of the akra on the honda btw.

Click to expand...

Old school… At least it has Akrapovic on the stock bike. The full Akrapovic system for a Honda costs less (I think maybe far less) than one third of the DP price. Honda tax is far lower…

I find it funny how many Ducati forum member

cl955 said:

I agree with everything you said, but are we convinced that the super duper new electronic suspension really is a good option for a track only bike though? Even at a moderate pace?

Click to expand...

How do you know it isn’t?

Paul G said:

Impressive sprocket!

Click to expand...

I’m not a big fan of Carbon for carbon’s sake but that thing is cool, and about 8 ounces lighter than the stock sprocket and about 4 ounces lighter than

chris838 said:

I'd agree on the 8k usd akra nonsense. Especially in California with the non-op procedure and only official Ducati distribution. I'm super happy that with the new v2 they are heading in a different direction. But for the v4,s,r, I'd always go with a spark or whatnot instead. I don't particularly like the style of the akra on the honda btw.

Click to expand...

The problem is that Ducati won’t sell you or install the $800 software upgrade that gets you all the adjustability and the rear braking algorithms and slip algorithms etc in slicks at track without buying the $7500 exhaust from them…that was a deal breaker for me, as the whole benefit of the Ducati over its competitors is the 70 virtual sensor IMU and electronic algorithms that function with it based on all that tremendous amount of racing data they collect. You can’t use the selling point of the bike, its differentiator, without the $800 software and the $7500 exhaust. So to get what they are selling you from jump you have to add $8300 for parts and software PLUS $3.5k in labor cost to install it, plus tax on all that, plus navigate California regs.

So realistically you are looking at a $12,000 additional cost over the bike price to get what makes the 2025 V4S special in the market place.

Then add other track prep costs on top of that. Your into it by about $55k to $65k to get what Ducati is selling as special on the bike in track prepped form.

From it looks like so far I’ll only be into the Honda for about $35k TOTAL and that’s with carbon fiber wheels and all the bells and whistles that would put the Ducati at closer to $75,000.