- Joined
- Jan 8, 2012
- Messages
- 497
- Location
- UK
Though I RE'ed to a post on another thread, I thought this discussion deserved its own thread:
When asked why Baliss would rave about the Panigale with the Monocoque chassis when Rossi couldn't get it to work:
First off, comparing a WSBK bike to a MotoGP bike is apples and oranges as they are similar but completely different animals due to the governing rules established by FIM and Dorna respectively. However, for both bikes, a measure of its handling characteristics comes down to how well the bike and tires work together during acceleration, braking and at full lean.
In MotoGP, they have to use the control tires provided by Bridgestone, which as many have stated use a extremely stiff carcass. With the 800 lean angles exceeding 60 degrees the suspension is useless in soaking up ripples in the corner. For this, you need a tire carcass and chassis combination that can flex to soak up the ripples and maintain contact with the pavement. With the extremely stiff Bridgestone's, I think it was Honda's boss Nakamoto who stated they needed a chassis to bend like a willow in the corners yet remain rigid elsewhere. As many may recall, Honda has had issues getting the tires/chassis flex/geometry combination right for most of last year, which resulted in the famed head shake and instability on the brakes and corner entrance. Remember that this is "Big Red" with huge coffers and nearly a meter of frame to work with.
Now, apply the same principles to the Ducati, with its ~8 inches of equivalent frame to tune in enough flex to soak up mid corner ripples while retaining enough rigidity to cope with the tremendous forces of acceleration and braking. It's easy to visualize that the complexity of the problem is compounded exponentially as the frame length decreases, when you cannot alter the second component in the equation, the stiffness of the tire carcass. It is also important to remember that Ducati adopted the stressed member short chassis design for the 2007 season, at a time when the teams could demand their tire specification from the tire manufactures - two years before the Bridgestone control tire.
As well, we must also consider that were talking about the best riders in the world. Even with the stated complexity of the issue, Rossi and Haydon's race pace were usually within .5 of a second of the leaders. I wish I had the talent and bike to be within 10 seconds of the leader in a MotoGP race.
Back to Bayliss and the 1199. Though the 1199 also has a short frame, it is also running on Ducati's preferred Pirelli tires which are known for their forgiving carcass. As well, no matter how hard Bayliss is riding, he will be at least a couple of seconds off the times of the MotoGP boys and therefore not achieving the same level of forces exerted on the GP bikes.
In short, it is conceivable that the short frame of the 1199 work's in perfect harmony with the Perillis. Speaking for myself, I guarantee the 1199 is much more capable than I'll ever be able to exploit.
A recent article quoted Checa as stating "It seems to me that the tires are responsible for the lack of excitement in MotoGP and the reason the riders are crashing without understanding why," Checa said. "There is a lot of talk about the (Ducati) bike and the chassis, but the real difference in this category comes from the tires. They are super-rigid."
"When you don't understand where the tire limits are, it becomes very complicated to develop a bike. The issue at Ducati isn't the chassis; they changed it four times, and the result was always the same. The problem is the tires."
Source: Checa Says Tires to Blame for Ducati MotoGP Crisis | Ducati News Today
Thought's anyone?
When asked why Baliss would rave about the Panigale with the Monocoque chassis when Rossi couldn't get it to work:
First off, comparing a WSBK bike to a MotoGP bike is apples and oranges as they are similar but completely different animals due to the governing rules established by FIM and Dorna respectively. However, for both bikes, a measure of its handling characteristics comes down to how well the bike and tires work together during acceleration, braking and at full lean.
In MotoGP, they have to use the control tires provided by Bridgestone, which as many have stated use a extremely stiff carcass. With the 800 lean angles exceeding 60 degrees the suspension is useless in soaking up ripples in the corner. For this, you need a tire carcass and chassis combination that can flex to soak up the ripples and maintain contact with the pavement. With the extremely stiff Bridgestone's, I think it was Honda's boss Nakamoto who stated they needed a chassis to bend like a willow in the corners yet remain rigid elsewhere. As many may recall, Honda has had issues getting the tires/chassis flex/geometry combination right for most of last year, which resulted in the famed head shake and instability on the brakes and corner entrance. Remember that this is "Big Red" with huge coffers and nearly a meter of frame to work with.
Now, apply the same principles to the Ducati, with its ~8 inches of equivalent frame to tune in enough flex to soak up mid corner ripples while retaining enough rigidity to cope with the tremendous forces of acceleration and braking. It's easy to visualize that the complexity of the problem is compounded exponentially as the frame length decreases, when you cannot alter the second component in the equation, the stiffness of the tire carcass. It is also important to remember that Ducati adopted the stressed member short chassis design for the 2007 season, at a time when the teams could demand their tire specification from the tire manufactures - two years before the Bridgestone control tire.
As well, we must also consider that were talking about the best riders in the world. Even with the stated complexity of the issue, Rossi and Haydon's race pace were usually within .5 of a second of the leaders. I wish I had the talent and bike to be within 10 seconds of the leader in a MotoGP race.
Back to Bayliss and the 1199. Though the 1199 also has a short frame, it is also running on Ducati's preferred Pirelli tires which are known for their forgiving carcass. As well, no matter how hard Bayliss is riding, he will be at least a couple of seconds off the times of the MotoGP boys and therefore not achieving the same level of forces exerted on the GP bikes.
In short, it is conceivable that the short frame of the 1199 work's in perfect harmony with the Perillis. Speaking for myself, I guarantee the 1199 is much more capable than I'll ever be able to exploit.
A recent article quoted Checa as stating "It seems to me that the tires are responsible for the lack of excitement in MotoGP and the reason the riders are crashing without understanding why," Checa said. "There is a lot of talk about the (Ducati) bike and the chassis, but the real difference in this category comes from the tires. They are super-rigid."
"When you don't understand where the tire limits are, it becomes very complicated to develop a bike. The issue at Ducati isn't the chassis; they changed it four times, and the result was always the same. The problem is the tires."
Source: Checa Says Tires to Blame for Ducati MotoGP Crisis | Ducati News Today
Thought's anyone?
