Highly modified V4S versus KTM RC 8C

Steven31371 · Jul 20, 2024

bp_SFV4 said:
Probably when he realized there is no such thing as using your body position to steer and it’s all counter steering and if he wanted to turn (lean) more he needed to apply input to the bars. Motorcycles are inherently more stable when they are going faster; requiring a greater input on the bars to get the bike to lean then turn.

Push right go right, push left go left. Counter steer, pro steer is all it’s ever been.

Sorta agree but you can in fact turn the bike with just you legs and lean, just not well. The main guy at CSS brags that he can run most canyons without his hands on the bars at all…in my bicycling days I use to ride around curves all the time with no hands on the bars, you just lean…I was essentially trying to ride the motorcycle that way, but it takes a huge amount of physical effort to do it on a motorcycle. Which is why I was always exhausted after 5 to 7 laps.

SuperDomestique · Jul 20, 2024

Steven31371 said:
Sorta agree but you can in fact turn the bike with just you legs and lean, just not well. The main guy at CSS brags that he can run most canyons without his hands on the bars at all…in my bicycling days I use to ride around curves all the time with no hands on the bars, you just lean…I was essentially trying to ride the motorcycle that way, but it takes a huge amount of physical effort to do it on a motorcycle. Which is why I was always exhausted after 5 to 7 laps.

Good solid lower body positioning is critical to allow precise steering inputs. Instructors were talking about cornering without hands on controls.

One subtle counterintuitive point they made was that it’s ok to weight the bars during braking. Don’t rely strictly on your core and knees. Weight on the bars should be decreased as you trail brake into the corner

baggerman · Jul 21, 2024

bp_SFV4 said:
Probably when he realized there is no such thing as using your body position to steer and it’s all counter steering and if he wanted to turn (lean) more he needed to apply input to the bars. Motorcycles are inherently more stable when they are going faster; requiring a greater input on the bars to get the bike to lean then turn.

Push right go right, push left go left. Counter steer, pro steer is all it’s ever been.

So body english doesn't work? I guess I just have to disagree. I don't see much use in turning in as i'm always inside before I get to the corner but in chicanes weighting the outside peg (tossing yourself to the outside) to help get the bike up so you can flip it on to the other side is real useful.

baggerman · Jul 21, 2024

I like Buttonwillow especially when they run the full track (21 corners?). And it is real pretty technical. That blind rise mid corner in one of the configurations... bring big balls. If you've not been to Thunderhill you should. Just another 3 hrs (?) up the road from buttonwillow.

craig bush · Jul 21, 2024

Steven31371 said:
Sorta agree but you can in fact turn the bike with just you legs and lean, just not well. The main guy at CSS brags that he can run most canyons without his hands on the bars at all…in my bicycling days I use to ride around curves all the time with no hands on the bars, you just lean…I was essentially trying to ride the motorcycle that way, but it takes a huge amount of physical effort to do it on a motorcycle. Which is why I was always exhausted after 5 to 7 laps.

Interesting you mention css. You were likely counter steering more than you thought you were.

Steven31371 · Jul 21, 2024

craig bush said:
Interesting you mention css. You were likely counter steering more than you thought you were.

Yeah so let me be more specific with my wording….yes a 2 wheel vehicle MUST counter steer to turn in.

You can do that with just your body weight, or you can do it with more precision and control by using the bars. My big improvement was going from steering the bike 100% with body weight (that yes creates a ‘moment’’ of counter steer) to more intentionally and purposefully creating counter steer by pushing the bar forward.

Steven31371 · Jul 21, 2024

craig bush said:
Interesting you mention css. You were likely counter steering more than you thought you were.

To more succinctly answer your question about ‘when did I realize that I wasn’t counter steering ‘properly’ with bar input….it was at the moment when I actually did it right the 1st time on Friday

I came off the track saying that meme to myself: “I was today years old when I figured out I wasn’t counter steering by pushing the bar forward” like all my coaches told me to lol

In any case it’s kind of embarrassing that I’m only just now figuring out this most basic function of riding a bike after two years of track riding and coaching…the only reason I posted about it is because maybe there is somebody else out there that could use reviewing their most basic riding skills and can learn from my mistakes.

It sorta reminds me of a video that I saw after about my 10th track day where an instructor was listing the most common mistakes he’s sees in new writers, and the funniest one was that they’re not actually opening the throttle all the way. New riders would think they were opening the throttle 100% but when you looked at the data, they were only opening the throttle 70 or 80%. Next time I went to the track I checked and sure enough I was only turning the throttle about 80% and thinking I had it turned all the way.

Sometimes it’s the most basic things lol

spooky · Jul 21, 2024

Steven31371 said:
To more succinctly answer your question about ‘when did I realize that I wasn’t counter steering ‘properly’ with bar input….it was at the moment when I actually did it right the 1st time on Friday

I came off the track saying that meme to myself: “I was today years old when I figured out I wasn’t counter steering by pushing the bar forward” like all my coaches told me to lol

In any case it’s kind of embarrassing that I’m only just now figuring out this most basic function of riding a bike after two years of track riding and coaching…the only reason I posted about it is because maybe there is somebody else out there that could use reviewing their most basic riding skills and can learn from my mistakes.

It sorta reminds me of a video that I saw after about my 10th track day where an instructor was listing the most common mistakes he’s sees in new writers, and the funniest one was that they’re not actually opening the throttle all the way. New riders would think they were opening the throttle 100% but when you looked at the data, they were only opening the throttle 70 or 80%. Next time I went to the track I checked and sure enough I was only turning the throttle about 80% and thinking I had it turned all the way.

Sometimes it’s the most basic things lol

That last 10-20% you can feel as well - the bike goes ballistic.

Sharing mistakes and challenges that you faced is far more useful on a forum then successes, or even trying to pretend you know it all when you really don’t. Nobody learns anything from success – it’s failure where you learn.

SuperDomestique · Jul 21, 2024

Slow is fast

baggerman · Jul 21, 2024

SuperDomestique said:
Slow is fast

Smooth is fast.

jayvdz · Dec 3, 2024

Thanks for the comparison OP.
I'm quite interested in the 990 RCR, or '25 V2 as a replacement for my '21 V2 trackbike.

Steven31371 · Dec 7, 2024

jayvdz said:
Thanks for the comparison OP.
I'm quite interested in the 990 RCR, or '25 V2 as a replacement for my '21 V2 trackbike.

The new V2 looks promising, but the 44teeth guys say Ducati is positioning it for more road comfort not track acumen, and they made a joke that they were going to be showing up all over instagram with hot girls in low cut tops riding them for biker girl clickbait…kinda ruined the bike for me lol.

The RCR is a watered down version of the RC 8C and Kramer GP2 RR…you can pick up both of those 2nd hand pretty easily for about 30k with VERY few if any miles on them, because a lot of guys bought them as decorations for their living rooms and are selling them now.

jayvdz · Dec 8, 2024

There's a lot of good options for next season. It's going to be a track bike buyers market.
The RCR Track might be going on sale for half the price of a RC8C/Kramer, which if true will be VERY compelling.
Then there's the Aprilia RS 660 Factory.
And a Triumph 765 RS custom Moto2 build in mind.
Decisions, decisions

Highly modified V4S versus KTM RC 8C

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