Highly modified V4S versus KTM RC 8C

craig bush said:

Steven, What made you realize you weren’t counter steering enough?

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2 track days ago I was at a new track for me (Buttowillow) that has some really tight technical turns, and I realized how hard I was pushing downward on the bars and trying to use my outside leg to pull the bike down to the apex…and how exhausting that was even though I’m in decent shape.

I still didn’t realize that I wasn’t counter steering at all, I just put it on my list to ‘practice’ and play with. Mostly to ride in a more relaxed way.

I had a list of things I wanted to work on systematically and it was last my list.

On the 2nd to last session of the day yesterday I went out with the intention to try to consciously ‘experiment’ with pushing the bar forward to tip in instead of pulling the bike down with my whole body. I did it gingerly the 1st lap, half afraid I was going to lose the front but doing it wrong at those speeds. Was an immediate revelation…that holy crap I haven’t been counter steering at all…by the 3rd lap of that session I was 2 seconds faster…by the 2nd lap of the next session I was 4 seconds faster than that.

I can’t really explain WHY I hadn’t worked on that before, I knew from LOTS of coaching what I was supposed to do and FELT like I was doing that. My only explanation is that on the Ducati I was always so clinched up going into every corner, and I had seen a video early on saying to pull the bike down with your outside leg. I THOUGHT I was moving the bar enough but I really wasn’t moving the bar at all.

And I didn’t realize it until I intentionally moved the bar in counter steer at speed that session.

A side note, I could not for two years figure out why I was turning in a bit too late and messing up the line for two years now, with dozens of suspension adjustments because the bike was ‘too hard to turn in’…but it was because I was 100% steering the bike with my legs and if that wasn’t enough I’d push down really hard on the bar to close down onto the apex. Imagine trying to go around the track without your hands on the bars, just steering with lean…that’s what I’ve been doing.

bp_SFV4 said:

Probably when he realized there is no such thing as using your body position to steer and it’s all counter steering and if he wanted to turn (lean) more he needed to apply input to the bars. Motorcycles are inherently more stable when they are going faster; requiring a greater input on the bars to get the bike to lean then turn.

Push right go right, push left go left. Counter steer, pro steer is all it’s ever been.

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Sorta agree but you can in fact turn the bike with just you legs and lean, just not well. The main guy at CSS brags that he can run most canyons without his hands on the bars at all…in my bicycling days I use to ride around curves all the time with no hands on the bars, you just lean…I was essentially trying to ride the motorcycle that way, but it takes a huge amount of physical effort to do it on a motorcycle. Which is why I was always exhausted after 5 to 7 laps.

Steven31371 said:

Sorta agree but you can in fact turn the bike with just you legs and lean, just not well. The main guy at CSS brags that he can run most canyons without his hands on the bars at all…in my bicycling days I use to ride around curves all the time with no hands on the bars, you just lean…I was essentially trying to ride the motorcycle that way, but it takes a huge amount of physical effort to do it on a motorcycle. Which is why I was always exhausted after 5 to 7 laps.

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Good solid lower body positioning is critical to allow precise steering inputs. Instructors were talking about cornering without hands on controls.

One subtle counterintuitive point they made was that it’s ok to weight the bars during braking. Don’t rely strictly on your core and knees. Weight on the bars should be decreased as you trail brake into the corner

bp_SFV4 said:

Probably when he realized there is no such thing as using your body position to steer and it’s all counter steering and if he wanted to turn (lean) more he needed to apply input to the bars. Motorcycles are inherently more stable when they are going faster; requiring a greater input on the bars to get the bike to lean then turn.

Push right go right, push left go left. Counter steer, pro steer is all it’s ever been.

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So body english doesn't work? I guess I just have to disagree. I don't see much use in turning in as i'm always inside before I get to the corner but in chicanes weighting the outside peg (tossing yourself to the outside) to help get the bike up so you can flip it on to the other side is real useful.

I like Buttonwillow especially when they run the full track (21 corners?). And it is real pretty technical. That blind rise mid corner in one of the configurations... bring big balls. If you've not been to Thunderhill you should. Just another 3 hrs (?) up the road from buttonwillow.

Steven31371 said:

Sorta agree but you can in fact turn the bike with just you legs and lean, just not well. The main guy at CSS brags that he can run most canyons without his hands on the bars at all…in my bicycling days I use to ride around curves all the time with no hands on the bars, you just lean…I was essentially trying to ride the motorcycle that way, but it takes a huge amount of physical effort to do it on a motorcycle. Which is why I was always exhausted after 5 to 7 laps.

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Interesting you mention css. You were likely counter steering more than you thought you were.

craig bush said:

Interesting you mention css. You were likely counter steering more than you thought you were.

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Yeah so let me be more specific with my wording….yes a 2 wheel vehicle MUST counter steer to turn in.

You can do that with just your body weight, or you can do it with more precision and control by using the bars. My big improvement was going from steering the bike 100% with body weight (that yes creates a ‘moment’’ of counter steer) to more intentionally and purposefully creating counter steer by pushing the bar forward.

craig bush said:

Interesting you mention css. You were likely counter steering more than you thought you were.

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To more succinctly answer your question about ‘when did I realize that I wasn’t counter steering ‘properly’ with bar input….it was at the moment when I actually did it right the 1st time on Friday

I came off the track saying that meme to myself: “I was today years old when I figured out I wasn’t counter steering by pushing the bar forward” like all my coaches told me to lol

In any case it’s kind of embarrassing that I’m only just now figuring out this most basic function of riding a bike after two years of track riding and coaching…the only reason I posted about it is because maybe there is somebody else out there that could use reviewing their most basic riding skills and can learn from my mistakes.

It sorta reminds me of a video that I saw after about my 10th track day where an instructor was listing the most common mistakes he’s sees in new writers, and the funniest one was that they’re not actually opening the throttle all the way. New riders would think they were opening the throttle 100% but when you looked at the data, they were only opening the throttle 70 or 80%. Next time I went to the track I checked and sure enough I was only turning the throttle about 80% and thinking I had it turned all the way.

Sometimes it’s the most basic things lol

Steven31371 said:

To more succinctly answer your question about ‘when did I realize that I wasn’t counter steering ‘properly’ with bar input….it was at the moment when I actually did it right the 1st time on Friday

I came off the track saying that meme to myself: “I was today years old when I figured out I wasn’t counter steering by pushing the bar forward” like all my coaches told me to lol

In any case it’s kind of embarrassing that I’m only just now figuring out this most basic function of riding a bike after two years of track riding and coaching…the only reason I posted about it is because maybe there is somebody else out there that could use reviewing their most basic riding skills and can learn from my mistakes.

It sorta reminds me of a video that I saw after about my 10th track day where an instructor was listing the most common mistakes he’s sees in new writers, and the funniest one was that they’re not actually opening the throttle all the way. New riders would think they were opening the throttle 100% but when you looked at the data, they were only opening the throttle 70 or 80%. Next time I went to the track I checked and sure enough I was only turning the throttle about 80% and thinking I had it turned all the way.

Sometimes it’s the most basic things lol

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That last 10-20% you can feel as well - the bike goes ballistic.

Sharing mistakes and challenges that you faced is far more useful on a forum then successes, or even trying to pretend you know it all when you really don’t. Nobody learns anything from success – it’s failure where you learn.

Slow is fast

SuperDomestique said:

Slow is fast

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Smooth is fast.

Thanks for the comparison OP.
I'm quite interested in the 990 RCR, or '25 V2 as a replacement for my '21 V2 trackbike.