Highly modified V4S versus KTM RC 8C

andyb said:

That bad it has its own chat group?
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Steven31371 said:

If you look, there is another one for “A known starting issue”…it’s all related to older bikes though, and certainly not the upgraded engine in the RC 8C, which they intentionally ‘hardened’ for track use.

Spooky had one fail though. My personal opinion is that at least some of the rare failures are due to user error, in that these Twin Engines get REALLY hot REALLY fast if you leave them running while sitting in place. There is no fan for cooling, and the engine heats up super fast, and many of the older iterations do t even have an oil cooler radiator.

When I came off track for the last session yesterday I did what I always do on the Ducati and parked it running behind the truck while I got off the square up the wheel chuck inside the truck, so I could pull the bike right up into the truck for the ride home. I that 30 to 45 seconds of the bike sitting there running all the alarm lights went off for ‘high engine heat’…had an ‘oh ....’ moment and ran over and jumped on to ride the bike up and down the parking lot to get air moving over the radiators and cool it down. It occurred to me that if you are coming from other bikes with cooling fans it would be VERY easy to leave that bike running for 5 minutes while it’s sitting still and potentially have a catastrophic engine failure from over heating it.

But that’s kinda some of the idiosyncrasies you learn to deal with in a bespoke track bike.

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spooky said:

I think you mean Snuggly.

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KarlKani said:

This is why a 1000cc bike should not be your entry to riding at the track

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Steven31371 said:

Wow have I learned that all too well in these last months on the smaller bike. I had to completely go back to basics and actually learn how to ride, but so far I’ve been able to on this smaller bike.

My laps times actually went a good bit backwards and I found myself getting frustrated last track day after spending months now just working on the basic fundamentals of track riding on a smaller bike. But yesterday I had a huge leap forward…I dramatically increased my lean angle and roll speed on the bike in one track day, and got an absurd 6 seconds faster on the big track at Willow Springs than I was the last time I was there on this bike.

After MONTHS of re-learning and practicing the basics, it came down to literally THE MOST BASIC THING that has been holding my riding back. For over two years of track riding until yesterday I was not using the bars to counter steer the bike to turn it when trying to go fast at the track…I knew I was supposed to do that, and thought I was…but for two years I’ve been steering the bike nearly 100% with my body position and legs, from tip in to corner exit I’ve been turning the bike with close to 0% bar input.

For two years I’ve been steering the bike by throwing my body off the side and pulling the bike down with my outside leg on the tank. And then complaining to my suspension guy that I can get the bike to turn well or hit the apex the way I want it to. For a long time there if the bike wouldn’t make the apex by pulling the bike down with my knee and throwing my weight off the side of the bike I would push DOWN as hard as I could on the bars to make it lean more. Note not forward or backwards to counter steer, literally I would push down on the bar to supplement pulling the bike down with my knee.

And if you asked me the whole time I would tell you yes I was counter steering. I thought I was counter steering but the bike just didn’t want to turn as easily as I wanted it too so I need more suspension adjustments

I think the reason I developed that habit despite having lots of coaching, was that the Ducati as a learner bike was just WAY too much bike. I was subconsciously afraid to put too much bar input into turning because I was going too fast with too much power and scared I would make a mistake on the bar inputs and tuck the front.

When I started riding the RC 8C I decided to just revisit and work on all the most basic things.

I made a list and then have been methodically working through focusing on each of the things on the list session to session one at a time:

Tipping in faster. (I’m going offline as I carry more speed from tipping in too slow)

Shifting (all the way up on on straights, and down while braking on corner entry)…use all the bike’s power on the straights!

Braking without weighting the bars ever (still do intermittently) strong core and off center before braking.

Trail braking (harder straight up and down, shorter and faster on faster tip in)

Less coast time between off throttle and braking.

Tuck better on straights

Eyes FLOWING from inside apex to outside edge of the track where I want my speed to carry me (don’t linger eyes on the apex)

Markers for braking, apex, far side exit

Steer with counter steer more efficiently (not by pushing down on the bars or pulling down with the legs)

The last thing on the list was to work on counter steering more consciously. Probably should have led with that

The last two sessions of the day yesterday instead of pulling the bike down with my knees and pushing my weight downward on the bar to make the apex or throwing more of my weight onto the inside of the bike, I simply practiced nudging the bar forward with finesse to hit my line on the apex. Very gingerly at 1st, but with increasing confidence on each corner.

Night and day difference, by the end of those two sessions I was 6 seconds faster than my best lap time the last time I was at that track on this bike, and 4 seconds faster than my sessions earlier in the day. My maximum lean angle also went from 44% to 51% from session to the next, and, it only took about 30% of the PHYSICAL EFFORT it was taking before to get the bike around the track, despite going 6 seconds faster. Big difference in sheer physical demand to get the bike around the track with counter steer versus wrestling the bike with your whole body into a lean.

I was gunna post all this in another thread…but all my mistakes despite lots of coaching, and how long it’s taken me to start to figure them out (over two years) is directly tied to my very 1st bike being a highly modified 235hp 398 pound Ducati V4 liter bike.

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spooky said:

It’s funny you should say that. I was taught to pull the bike down with the outside leg. Counter steering was not mentioned – I knew about it because I used to use it many many years ago when I was young. I did it more consciously at Most and saw a good reduction in lap time.

Being off the bike before braking makes a huge difference, not just to bar pressure but, as a consequence, stability and confidence as you turn in.

Same again with regard to what you said about vision – I was trying to work on that today. It’s such an important aspect.

Same again with coasting – I find the data helps with this and it’s interesting when you get it right to see the throttle go down to zero and the brake pressure immediately going up – or not… it’s very helpful to see it happening in the data. I also have a bad habit of holding my speed - coasting - as I approach my brake marker rather than keeping the throttle open and accelerating to that point. No need for data to know when that’s happening and it’s lucky there is not an audio recording as the air turns rather blue at that point.

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spooky said:

It’s funny you should say that. I was taught to pull the bike down with the outside leg. Counter steering was not mentioned – I knew about it because I used to use it many many years ago when I was young. I did it more consciously at Most and saw a good reduction in lap time.

Being off the bike before braking makes a huge difference, not just to bar pressure but, as a consequence, stability and confidence as you turn in.

Same again with regard to what you said about vision – I was trying to work on that today. It’s such an important aspect.

Same again with coasting – I find the data helps with this and it’s interesting when you get it right to see the throttle go down to zero and the brake pressure immediately going up – or not… it’s very helpful to see it happening in the data. I also have a bad habit of holding my speed - coasting - as I approach my brake marker rather than keeping the throttle open and accelerating to that point. No need for data to know when that’s happening and it’s lucky there is not an audio recording as the air turns rather blue at that point.

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Steven31371 said:

It’s the basics man…and having comparative data for me at least got me asking questions about how far off on the basics I am. When I see guys carrying 10 to 12 MPH more roll speed through a corner on similar bikes when I’m struggling at my current speeds it got me questioning what am I doing wrong that I think I’m doing right.

I couldn’t see where I could get faster or how, but now I can see where I can get 12 seconds faster on that track before I even start dancing the bike at its limits of traction.

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baggerman said:

Speaking of vision watch Pedro Acosta particularly in big sweepers.

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spooky said:

I think you are right. I reckon with good technique you can get some pretty decent times before you get to the point where you really need to push things. And a lot of it is in the head of course. I’m happy to make small steps rather than trying to push my comfort zone too quickly, although sometimes things come together and you suddenly drop quite a bit of time, often on laps that feel slow.

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SuperDomestique said:

Went to DRE Laguna Seca last weekend. I got some good insights talking to some ex-racers (Jake Zemke, Roger Hayden, and John Kocinski) on their approach to trackday riding. They emphasized VISION as one of the most important parts of the process. Picking up markers either on the track or to the side or above is important to help guide lines and braking points. The hard part is that we’re riding too fast to either find these markers and consistently apply them. So that means slowing down and riding at a pace that doesn’t task saturate.

For body positioning, the most notable insight I found was how little they’re sitting in the middle of the seat. Basically, some of them don’t ever return to the middle of the seat ever at Laguna (granted it doesn’t have the longest of straights). Setting up for the next corner as you exit the previous corner was super helpful in minimizing inputs. I was on left side of the seat out of T10 down the front straight and over the crest and didn’t change position until after exiting T2. Then I was on the right side of the seat until the entrance of T5. Also, getting the elbows wide and hands correctly positioned on the bars (hold them like a screwdriver) was really helpful to minimize twisting of the upper body and to get the head lower. Also need to work on keeping the outside thigh locked into the tank better.

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They also reinforced the counter steering element and that trail braking is the way to go. You can always fall back on cornering ABS if you exceed grip while braking but if you’re coasting and lose grip bc of poor weighting there’s no way back

Overall, it was a great day! Learned a lot. Pros and ex-pros are on another level. Got passed by Zemke into T10 not realizing it was him and tried to catch tow. That was a mistake. Got sucked in way deeper into T2 than I’ve ever been and then realized I was following a pro haha. Afterward, he offered some poignant advice “never follow someone you don’t know.” Basically, go at your own pace. While I wasn’t any faster than my previous forays at Laguna, I was at least 3-5x more comfortable riding at that pace (especially since I recently took a gentle dirt nap in T4).

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Steven31371 said:

The fastest lap I ever did, and generally speaking my fastest laps are when I go out and just tell myself to flooow around the track and keep my eyes way down range.

Although yesterday I was doing really well by talking to myself the whole way.

“Shift your hips….wait wait wait, now pop up…not too hard on the brakes….steer to the apex…drop your elbow….hard on the power, no harder on the power….”

Next corner, “don’t roll too much off throttle….steer to the apex….drop the elbow…keep you speed up, dip into the 2nd apex…hard throttle…flow”

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SuperDomestique said:

Went to DRE Laguna Seca last weekend. I got some good insights talking to some ex-racers (Jake Zemke, Roger Hayden, and John Kocinski) on their approach to trackday riding. They emphasized VISION as one of the most important parts of the process. Picking up markers either on the track or to the side or above is important to help guide lines and braking points. The hard part is that we’re riding too fast to either find these markers and consistently apply them. So that means slowing down and riding at a pace that doesn’t task saturate.

For body positioning, the most notable insight I found was how little they’re sitting in the middle of the seat. Basically, some of them don’t ever return to the middle of the seat ever at Laguna (granted it doesn’t have the longest of straights). Setting up for the next corner as you exit the previous corner was super helpful in minimizing inputs. I was on left side of the seat out of T10 down the front straight and over the crest and didn’t change position until after exiting T2. Then I was on the right side of the seat until the entrance of T5. Also, getting the elbows wide and hands correctly positioned on the bars (hold them like a screwdriver) was really helpful to minimize twisting of the upper body and to get the head lower. Also need to work on keeping the outside thigh locked into the tank better.

View attachment 55568



They also reinforced the counter steering element and that trail braking is the way to go. You can always fall back on cornering ABS if you exceed grip while braking but if you’re coasting and lose grip bc of poor weighting there’s no way back

Overall, it was a great day! Learned a lot. Pros and ex-pros are on another level. Got passed by Zemke into T10 not realizing it was him and tried to catch tow. That was a mistake. Got sucked in way deeper into T2 than I’ve ever been and then realized I was following a pro haha. Afterward, he offered some poignant advice “never follow someone you don’t know.” Basically, go at your own pace. While I wasn’t any faster than my previous forays at Laguna, I was at least 3-5x more comfortable riding at that pace (especially since I recently took a gentle dirt nap in T4).

Click to expand...

SuperDomestique said:

Went to DRE Laguna Seca last weekend. I got some good insights talking to some ex-racers (Jake Zemke, Roger Hayden, and John Kocinski) on their approach to trackday riding. They emphasized VISION as one of the most important parts of the process. Picking up markers either on the track or to the side or above is important to help guide lines and braking points. The hard part is that we’re riding too fast to either find these markers and consistently apply them. So that means slowing down and riding at a pace that doesn’t task saturate.

For body positioning, the most notable insight I found was how little they’re sitting in the middle of the seat. Basically, some of them don’t ever return to the middle of the seat ever at Laguna (granted it doesn’t have the longest of straights). Setting up for the next corner as you exit the previous corner was super helpful in minimizing inputs. I was on left side of the seat out of T10 down the front straight and over the crest and didn’t change position until after exiting T2. Then I was on the right side of the seat until the entrance of T5. Also, getting the elbows wide and hands correctly positioned on the bars (hold them like a screwdriver) was really helpful to minimize twisting of the upper body and to get the head lower. Also need to work on keeping the outside thigh locked into the tank better.

View attachment 55568



They also reinforced the counter steering element and that trail braking is the way to go. You can always fall back on cornering ABS if you exceed grip while braking but if you’re coasting and lose grip bc of poor weighting there’s no way back

Overall, it was a great day! Learned a lot. Pros and ex-pros are on another level. Got passed by Zemke into T10 not realizing it was him and tried to catch tow. That was a mistake. Got sucked in way deeper into T2 than I’ve ever been and then realized I was following a pro haha. Afterward, he offered some poignant advice “never follow someone you don’t know.” Basically, go at your own pace. While I wasn’t any faster than my previous forays at Laguna, I was at least 3-5x more comfortable riding at that pace (especially since I recently took a gentle dirt nap in T4).

Click to expand...