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This is my last post in this thread because arguing on the web is ridiculous but all AR have done so far is to dyno test the variety of options available for our bikes: Stock, slips, full system on the same dyno under the same conditions. What they have found from this, and working with the Panigale's running in the British Superbikes is that the Termi headers do not work as well as the standard headers. Whether you think this is their spin or not is up to you, I have the full system on mine but this is where we are. Termi have already supplied a new header set to the BSB team for testing which did not improve either, this is a fact.
Yes AR have a their own system coming and yes they have said that they are making better power than the Termi but I hardly think they are ramming it down your throat and as you say so far they do not have an available product. We all make our own choices depending on what we want to believe and who we trust but AR are the only people I know of thus far who have done the full range of dyno testing and are working to make our bikes run better and be faster. My bike was a mess on the full system and upmap with flat spots and horrible fuelling, AR mapped it and now its lovely and fast.
Rich is a great guy who loves his bikes and AR are a tiny operation set up in response to not feeling satisfied with the big companies. The dyno testing is as transparent as it can be and the research on the Termi headers has also been investigated by an F1 exhaust manufacturer with the conclusion that the headers are simply too big for this engine. Again you may not believe that and that is of course, your choice but having met AR and had my bike mapped there I can assure you Rich is not being negative about the Termi system for his own gain, he still recommends the slip ons. If he was pushing his own product (which is not ready yet as you say) he would clearly be telling everyone to wait for the AR system and stay stock, I don't think it unreasonable to mention that a test system outperformed the Termi. All knowledge is good knowledge and if it helps some people make a choice then so be it. You are are happy with yours, I am currently happy with mine, I will revaluate as and when the other systems appear but lets keep this in perspective shall we, AR are helping us all with their dyno testing.
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Wow, there is not much luv in this thread. But I would have to agree a little with CaliDuc. He did not get his answers. AR claims they get more horsepower than Termi, maybe so, but let an independent body make the claim. Then again AR should be marketing their product as they are not stupid, they have poured millions in developing a full system and I'm sure they want their Return on Investment back as soon as possible.
We still don't have a price point so to me it's useless. Prototypes always seem to work better than production. The reason why that's so is because they eventually have to be price competitive with other competition and cut cost in material or scope of work in production which equates to less performance. A good trade off study will be performed by AR or any other manufacturer prior to the production run. It seems they are already having tooling issues from their vendor and it will probably drive the cost up. The exotic material is hard to work with and will also drive the cost up. Hopefully AR did their home work which would be great for the consumers, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get sticker shock for a few more horses or less performance at a cheaper price
We still don't have a price point so to me it's useless. Prototypes always seem to work better than production. The reason why that's so is because they eventually have to be price competitive with other competition and cut cost in material or scope of work in production which equates to less performance. A good trade off study will be performed by AR or any other manufacturer prior to the production run. It seems they are already having tooling issues from their vendor and it will probably drive the cost up. The exotic material is hard to work with and will also drive the cost up. Hopefully AR did their home work which would be great for the consumers, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get sticker shock for a few more horses or less performance at a cheaper price
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You know, we never had any of this from Termi. And I am sure we will have 3rd parties once it is released. I don't expect a manufacturer to do a 3rd aprty - magazines, individuals do that. That's why it is called 3rd party! Other people are pushing their products, and know one is coplaining there - Luv and the consolidated tailight to name 2. A ton of posts before they were ready to ship (still aren't). I didn't see someone complaining that RG's block offs were in danger because Luv annouced his weeks before it could ever ship. He's just existed, drumming up business.
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Your observation is spot-on.
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Personally, I have NO PROBLEM with Vendors pitching their goods. I just prefer it if :
1) They have something that stands on their own merits.
2) I have a truly independent third party review.
3) I can actually buy it.
4) They don't knock the competition - without the competition being able to validate a challenging product.
It is also helps if :
5) Their groupies do not attack me.
6) They do not attack me and state that I am not telling the truth.
why :
Because I am a consumer and I am interested in getting the best that I can for my bike(s).
In fairness to myself, I have thrown all my pictures and experience onto this forum and simply stood for myself when I get attacked. Period. As KustomKillerCali says .. "this forum is a tough crowd".
Now come tomorrow, when the UK awakes, they will no doubt continue to (try) tear me down.
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I agree we never got this from Termi but Ducati has exclusive rights from Termi for the 1199 so it relieved Termi from all the advertising cost and put the burden on Ducati to market their exhaust system. I like the termi exhaust system the demo I test drove had the Termi system and it sold me I'm having it put on tomorrow. I'm sure there will probably be other exhaust systems come out that will perform better than the Termi as it sits right now. Why not its the benchmark for now and others will improve upon it, but the reason I went with the Termi is because of that exclusive deal with Ducati. Meaning the upmaps that are developed are probably proprietary to Ducati and will be fine tuned and supported for a long time and hopefully gets better than the rest. I suspect that is why AR is not coming out with an upmap due to the proprietary reasons but I can be wrong. Let's wait and see if other exhaust manufacturers come come out with upmaps. I believe the upmaps are key to have the best exhaust system.
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something i just found out from the ducati dealer is that the full system doesnt cover long term (extra warranty) on the 1199. i dont know if this is for australia only but please double check before purchase as it will effect some people with the extra warranty.
Hence my earlier comment that you are BOTH well intentioned but this is a matter of mistaken interpretation and nuance!!!!! People may think English and American English is the same language but it is NOT.
You will note that, I, having mainly had a British education, and most others from Europe simply do not interpret the posts the same way you do. It doesn't mean either one is right. It just means we read the same words and interpret their meaning differently.
There was also a comment about 3rd Party verification and making "millions". Again, the perspective is totally off! It implies a large company, which AR isn't. I'd be highly surprised if they employed more than 20 people in total. I'd also hazard a guess that being called in to help race teams with the Pani is as much if not more a labour of love for Rich22 than he's getting paid for it. Him posting the dyno results the day after he does them, as he goes along, is as much 3rd party verification as you are ever going to get. In my work I deal with 3rd party surveys and inspections/certifications extensively and doing a throurough reputable 3rd party comparison and certifying it would cost in excess of US$ 50,000/- which is more than AR would likely ever be able to generate in profit on an exhaust over the entire lifetime of the Panigale. Again we have a totally different perception of scale!
Even though we speak the same language we need to be tolerant of each other because we do NOT speak the same language. Sometimes even when we think we know what is being said, we really don't. Adjectives like large, expensive, cheap, fast, high, low etc are particularly open to cultural bias just be aware of it.
Therefore it would be better if this thread died rather than dragging it on, creating animosity between Americans and the Brits/Europeans. There is no need for it, it doesn't help, and frankly just lowers the tone of what is a good forum. All in my humble opinion only ofcourse.
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Hmmm.....
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Rich may have done work for me but I'm no "groupie". He's charged me fairly and squarely for what he's done. And i'm pleased with the results. Had he phuqqed-up I'd be the first on this forum to tell all.!
Not trying to beat you down at all. You're just constantly downing on the only guy willing to divulge information "as it happens".
I'm in agreement with some of the stuff you do say but I'm no follower of any particular brand. Just cause Ducati and Termignoni are linked doesn't mean they'll have the best system/slip-ons etc.
You tell me any other manufacturer willing to come on here and divulge info as it happens. Can't see that happening.
I've said elsewhere that whoever makes the best will get my hard earned. Full stop! I'm waiting for all the disclosure from elsewhere. Nothing yet.
Is there? Nope not really!
It's a joke! Got to you though. Didn't it.
Chill out. You have a sweet bike, loads of money(by the look of things) but just need to rise above any childish comments....
Finally, how you spend your cash is up to you. I listened to Milsport, a team currently racing 1199's. If garden mesh(as you call it) is good enough for them, then it'll most definitely be good enough for me!
Tech or no tech.!
Cheers..!...
.
Not trying to beat you down at all. You're just constantly downing on the only guy willing to divulge information "as it happens".
I'm in agreement with some of the stuff you do say but I'm no follower of any particular brand. Just cause Ducati and Termignoni are linked doesn't mean they'll have the best system/slip-ons etc.
You tell me any other manufacturer willing to come on here and divulge info as it happens. Can't see that happening.
I've said elsewhere that whoever makes the best will get my hard earned. Full stop! I'm waiting for all the disclosure from elsewhere. Nothing yet.
Is there? Nope not really!
It's a joke! Got to you though. Didn't it.
Chill out. You have a sweet bike, loads of money(by the look of things) but just need to rise above any childish comments....
Finally, how you spend your cash is up to you. I listened to Milsport, a team currently racing 1199's. If garden mesh(as you call it) is good enough for them, then it'll most definitely be good enough for me!
Tech or no tech.!
Cheers..!...
.
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i started this thread and as much as i like the input i will say this. I am putting it in caps because this was the question. SLIP ONS OR FULL TERMI. As of now i can only buy termis so thats the question. No offense AR as of now i cant get anything from you. IF YOU A CONSUMER WERE IN A DUCATI STORE WOULD YOU GET FULL SYSTEM OR SLIPS. Thats it i dont care about ar akra arrow or any other manufacturer out there. why? cause as of today 10/10/12 i can only buy TERMIS.
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Unless you are a very serious rider who has the talent to ride a superbike to its limits then then the slip-ons should be ample, they sound and look great, the bike is more rideable than with the stock pipes.
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I have answered this, in dyno tests the slip ons out perform the Termi headers, save your money.
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I prefer the full system. It gets rid of the CAT Converter which will reduce some of the heat and increase power and most of all it reduce weight. But you can always start off with the slip on and if you want to get the headers down the road you can.
I dont know how the slip on produce better power with that CAT installed. It amazes me how people believe that unless the bike is shipped different in terms of what type of CAT installed/Stock Up Maps than what they ship to California. I know we have tough emission laws here but come on a bike with a CAT produce more power than a bike without a CAT, 20MM larger headers for more air flow and reduced back pressure with the same silencers? Im sure super stock will be adding that CAT back on next year.
I dont know how the slip on produce better power with that CAT installed. It amazes me how people believe that unless the bike is shipped different in terms of what type of CAT installed/Stock Up Maps than what they ship to California. I know we have tough emission laws here but come on a bike with a CAT produce more power than a bike without a CAT, 20MM larger headers for more air flow and reduced back pressure with the same silencers? Im sure super stock will be adding that CAT back on next year.
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