New DP accessories

Brad · Jan 1, 2014

NOLA said:
Sorry dude, BIG BS flag on that one.

I have been dealing with auto racing engines a lot longer than the average bear. When synthetic oil was introduced the big auto manufacturers told us that it was a total waste of time, and that regular oil was what we needed. Now that THEY bear the cost, all of a sudden synthetic is the ...., and so good that we (they) don't need to change the motor oil till 10,000mi. AND, all of a sudden that requirement occurred when THEY started bundling service/purchase price. I don't believe in coincidences.

And you cant honestly suggest that they are improving inner engine load bearing surfaces to help out the end user and some type of magical teflon type coating is being applies that now changes the wear properties of the same metal from the previous model year's engine. Come on. Cars are getting cheaper and crappier (Why I buy German).

And….I just checked. My car takes the same amount of oil that the previous three years vehicles did. So much for that deep sump theory.

Respectfully.

NOLA

Nola, your take on the deep sump theory is flawed.
BMW motorcycles(German) for example have broadly and significantly increased their oil capacities in recent years. So there's a trend with BMW in that regard.

Further, because your machine hasn't had an increase in oil capacity in line with the deep sump theory. It doesn't prove that there is no need for more oil capacity in some machines.
It only proves that the engineers(at this point in time) don't think there is a need for more oil in it. That's all it proves, and we could theorize Ad Nauseum back and forth about that.

I'm with Trans on the deep sump theory, as it's just another way to improve the longevity of "some" machines or extend service intervals. There's plenty of evidence to support that theory with machines that ultimately prove to be over driven in service.
The other ways to improve longevity and extend service intervals is to add a cooler or heat exchanger and or spec higher performance oils.

Also I would like to add that there are instances where oil capacities have been reduced. But that more often than not coincides with a new design or new make and model of machine, and I think it always coincides with higher spec oil.

Brad · Jan 1, 2014

I also noticed the Billet Brake and Clutch fluid reservoirs in the DP website

Available in red or black.

I've never seen them before

transdesigner · Jan 1, 2014

Brad said:
You make an interesting point. If however my information is actually correct, then your point is coming from a very coloured/sceptical basis.
I prefer to keep an open mind at this early stage.

Further to this, I would like to point out that the evidence to verify the increased power gains of the MWR filter is highly questionable from a scientific viewpoint to say the least. in fact I believe it's garbage.
I personally have a better chance of believing in climate change, than the totally inconclusive reports about the MWR filter Hp gains.

Consider this.
Taking the MWR filter out of the equation.
What if(and nobody has seen one in the flesh yet for comparison) the air filter element in the 899 really is an "economy version" with a different type of filter media to reduce costs. It would be inline with sound business practices.

Then it may very well be possible that the filter media of the air filter that comes with the 899 Slip-on kit (Part no 96480221A) really is an upgrade for the 899, and it may actually be the same as the 1199 stock air filter media.
It's not unreasonable to expect this scenario to exist. IMO.

I put it to you. If not then why not?
We will have to see the physical comparison between the different filters in the fullness of time I think

I agree with your point about the lower cost on the 899 filter and how that makes sense. My point was more that the quote on their website is a typo regarding it's applicability to the 1199. And the comment about it providing the optimum flow just reopens the MWR 6+hp gains claim, because it means the Ducati rep or MWR is lying there... Regarding the MWR, I am EXTREMELY skeptical of it's gains... as seen in my comments on this thread I started http://ducati1199.com/ducati-1199/13083-mwr-filter-worth.html and a few of the other MWR threads... so I won't retype my points about it again but needless to say I agree with you regarding the 6+hp gain claims of the MWR being very optimistic. But if Ducati is right, everyone that bought the MWR is wasting their money because the stock 1199 filter flows enough as it is... someone's fibbing a bit

Stw · Jan 1, 2014

transdesigner said:
I agree with your point about the lower cost on the 899 filter and how that makes sense. My point was more that the quote on their website is a typo regarding it's applicability to the 1199. And the comment about it providing the optimum flow just reopens the MWR 6+hp gains claim, because it means the Ducati rep or MWR is lying there... Regarding the MWR, I am EXTREMELY skeptical of it's gains... as seen in my comments on this thread I started http://ducati1199.com/ducati-1199/13083-mwr-filter-worth.html and a few of the other MWR threads... so I won't retype my points about it again but needless to say I agree with you regarding the 6+hp gain claims of the MWR being very optimistic. But if Ducati is right, everyone that bought the MWR is wasting their money because the stock 1199 filter flows enough as it is... someone's fibbing a bit

I seem to recall calling Randy out on this whole 6Hp gain via the Mwr filter back then also....... I even offered him a deal vis a vis a before and after dyno run using my bike....If it gave me the +6Hp gain I would pay for the the install and dyno time...if it didn't he would pay...he never took me up on it...lol

Brad · Jan 1, 2014

transdesigner said:
But if Ducati is right, everyone that bought the MWR is wasting their money because the stock 1199 filter flows enough as it is... someone's fibbing a bit

I'm hearing you.
Either that or they're both a bit genuinely biased about the benefits of their own products and maybe just a little delusional as a result

I'm usually personally a bit biased toward the OEM.
After all they're the ones who designed/engineered the thing in the first place.
I know they're constrained to varying degrees by commercial realities, but they "know" more about the inner workings from their experience through durability testing and or racing(and beta testing

).

In DUCATI's case, because they started from a clean sheet design they had the choice of anything they wanted in the whole world for the filter media they were going to use in the 1199.
Given the design briefs that were put forward, I believe they chose to go with what we have in our bikes today for pretty sound reasons.

Regarding MWR, they just had something that was marketable and went with it from there. They're not really required to prove the veracity of their claims.
I'm not sure if they even offer a money back guarantee?
If one (for what ever reason) damaged an engine through using their filter, it would be almost impossible to prove and they would be able to wiggle their way out of any potential liability.

Where as DUCATI on the other hand have to offer a reasonable amount of back up for their product for the 2 year warranty period, and potentially a bit beyond through good will.
Put their money well and truly where their mouth is so to speak.

Brad · Jan 1, 2014

Stw said:
I seem to recall calling Randy out on this whole 6Hp gain via the Mwr filter back then also....... I even offered him a deal vis a vis a before and after dyno run using my bike....If it gave me the +6Hp gain I would pay for the the install and dyno time...if it didn't he would pay...he never took me up on it...lol

Yep, that's the way of it

NOLA · Jan 1, 2014

Ducati filter testing vs. MWR filter testing.

and remember"¦Inconel is better.

Brad · Jan 2, 2014

Well it is lighter than the stock exhaust material.
Maybe not so durable hey?

transdesigner · Jan 2, 2014

Brad said:
I'm hearing you.
Either that or they're both a bit genuinely biased about the benefits of their own products and maybe just a little delusional as a result

I'm usually personally a bit biased toward the OEM.
After all they're the ones who designed/engineered the thing in the first place.
I know they're constrained to varying degrees by commercial realities, but they "know" more about the inner workings from their experience through durability testing and or racing(and beta testing).

In DUCATI's case, because they started from a clean sheet design they had the choice of anything they wanted in the whole world for the filter media they were going to use in the 1199.
Given the design briefs that were put forward, I believe they chose to go with what we have in our bikes today for pretty sound reasons.

Regarding MWR, they just had something that was marketable and went with it from there. They're not really required to prove the veracity of their claims.
I'm not sure if they even offer a money back guarantee?
If one (for what ever reason) damaged an engine through using their filter, it would be almost impossible to prove and they would be able to wiggle their way out of any potential liability.

Where as DUCATI on the other hand have to offer a reasonable amount of back up for their product for the 2 year warranty period, and potentially a bit beyond through good will.
Put their money well and truly where their mouth is so to speak.

I agree with a lot of your points here and made similar ones buried in that other thread I mentioned. The warranty issue is a huge factor that even reputable aftermarket companies ignore. For example, there are companies out there that will sell you saleen mustangs or hennesy vipers with double the hp... but when I've asked reps from those companies if they upgraded the transmission internals or differential they say no and something like "it didn't need it". Well... I've worked on the design side with the trans and diff in both those cars and know exactly what torque and life they are designed for, and it's not even close to what the aftermarket companies are running thru them.

On a similar note, there could be some innocent ignorance from whoever the ducati rep you talked to was. What I mean is at least in the auto world... no customer could ever get to the "real" engineers that designed the powertrain without some inside connection. For example, most US and European OEMs don't even design a lot of their own engines or transmissions (from BMW to Ford)... it's outsourced to engineering consulting companies, so getting in touch with the engineers that really "know" what the was involved with the design is nearly impossible. Even when I was at an OEM, I knew what specifications my parts were designed for, and that info trickled down to the other people in the company that could eventually deal with the public, but those people don't really know what the original engineering targets/requirements were for the parts. Not saying this is verbatim the case with Ducati, but generally speaking the actual design engineers are usually kept very far away from the public... so whoever you talked to could genuinely believe the filter is the best flowing filter based on what he/she's been told... but you'd have to track down the actual guys that designed it to know if they had to make concessions/trade-offs for cost/durability/manufacturing/ease of assembly, etc.

Sloopy · Jan 2, 2014

It is interesting to note that my AMG came with an additional exhaust, air filter and map.
If I was to order a Termi system I would get the same 3 elements.

If I add the Termi in slip or full form to the 1199, they don't seem to find it beneficial to add a filter to any of the options. My Tri came with the slips and a up map only.

Brad · Jan 2, 2014

transdesigner said:
I agree with a lot of your points here and made similar ones buried in that other thread I mentioned. The warranty issue is a huge factor that even reputable aftermarket companies ignore. For example, there are companies out there that will sell you saleen mustangs or hennesy vipers with double the hp... but when I've asked reps from those companies if they upgraded the transmission internals or differential they say no and something like "it didn't need it". Well... I've worked on the design side with the trans and diff in both those cars and know exactly what torque and life they are designed for, and it's not even close to what the aftermarket companies are running thru them.

On a similar note, there could be some innocent ignorance from whoever the ducati rep you talked to was. What I mean is at least in the auto world... no customer could ever get to the "real" engineers that designed the powertrain without some inside connection. For example, most US and European OEMs don't even design a lot of their own engines or transmissions (from BMW to Ford)... it's outsourced to engineering consulting companies, so getting in touch with the engineers that really "know" what the was involved with the design is nearly impossible. Even when I was at an OEM, I knew what specifications my parts were designed for, and that info trickled down to the other people in the company that could eventually deal with the public, but those people don't really know what the original engineering targets/requirements were for the parts. Not saying this is verbatim the case with Ducati, but generally speaking the actual design engineers are usually kept very far away from the public... so whoever you talked to could genuinely believe the filter is the best flowing filter based on what he/she's been told... but you'd have to track down the actual guys that designed it to know if they had to make concessions/trade-offs for cost/durability/manufacturing/ease of assembly, etc.

Yes, that's certainly the way of it as I understand the world

Brad · Jan 2, 2014

Sloopy said:
It is interesting to note that my AMG came with an additional exhaust, air filter and map.
If I was to order a Termi system I would get the same 3 elements.

If I add the Termi in slip or full form to the 1199, they don't seem to find it beneficial to add a filter to any of the options. My Tri came with the slips and a up map only.

I'm inclined to think DUCATI pulled out all the stops they could on the 1199.
Looking at the machine as it stands, it's pretty hard not to notice unless you're either nieve or wearing blue and white coloured glasses

NOLA · Jan 2, 2014

transdesigner said:
I agree with a lot of your points here and made similar ones buried in that other thread I mentioned. The warranty issue is a huge factor that even reputable aftermarket companies ignore. For example, there are companies out there that will sell you saleen mustangs or hennesy vipers with double the hp... but when I've asked reps from those companies if they upgraded the transmission internals or differential they say no and something like "it didn't need it". Well... I've worked on the design side with the trans and diff in both those cars and know exactly what torque and life they are designed for, and it's not even close to what the aftermarket companies are running thru them.

On a similar note, there could be some innocent ignorance from whoever the ducati rep you talked to was. What I mean is at least in the auto world... no customer could ever get to the "real" engineers that designed the powertrain without some inside connection. For example, most US and European OEMs don't even design a lot of their own engines or transmissions (from BMW to Ford)... it's outsourced to engineering consulting companies, so getting in touch with the engineers that really "know" what the was involved with the design is nearly impossible. Even when I was at an OEM, I knew what specifications my parts were designed for, and that info trickled down to the other people in the company that could eventually deal with the public, but those people don't really know what the original engineering targets/requirements were for the parts. Not saying this is verbatim the case with Ducati, but generally speaking the actual design engineers are usually kept very far away from the public... so whoever you talked to could genuinely believe the filter is the best flowing filter based on what he/she's been told... but you'd have to track down the actual guys that designed it to know if they had to make concessions/trade-offs for cost/durability/manufacturing/ease of assembly, etc.

Tremec 6060.

transdesigner · Jan 2, 2014

NOLA said:
Tremec 6060.

Yup, intimately familiar with it to say the least

Even designed an automated version of it (AMT) that unfortunately never went into production.

Good guys at Tremec. Although they moved all production to Mexico...

NOLA · Jan 2, 2014

transdesigner said:
Yup, intimately familiar with it to say the least Even designed an automated version of it (AMT) that unfortunately never went into production.

Good guys at Tremec. Although they moved all production to Mexico...

My 351W trashed a 3550 back (way back) in the day. Went with a built C4, couldn't afford the pricier (in the day) 3535.

Brad · Jan 2, 2014

NOLA said:
My 351W trashed a 3550 back (way back) in the day. Went with a built C4, couldn't afford the pricier (in the day) 3535.

A C4 is good gear

Hard to go too far wrong there

A friend of mine has just recently put one behind a very nice 351C.
Absolutely superb

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