Panigale V4 vs 1299 Dyno Results

Ducati is the only smart manufacture. Why limit to 1000cc? If you have the resources to provide a 1100cc and a 1000cc for racing then more power to you. Who wouldn't want the extra cc's on the street?

Mutt1979 said:

I get what you mean (1199cc twin). I suppose in my mind I'm just thinking the twin was allowed the extra cc, Ducati have made the move to 4 cylinders but don't want to give up that advantage. It's not cheating per say, but if the next gen of jap bikes/BMW/Aprillia etc get 210-215 bhp out of 1000cc then by comparison the Ducati would appear to be the lesser machine no? They've not achieved anything special, it's something any manufacturer could do by increasing the engine displacement.

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I'm also looking forward to what the other manufacturers come up with, particularly the new S1000RR. It seems like it's shaping up to be a really impressive machine, based on the limited info that's trickled out so far.

With that said, I don't think Ducati's efforts can be discounted since the 1100cc V4, just as the 1299 before it, was designed to be a street bike with the knowledge that there would be a race-legal homologated version coming out after. Because of that, I don't really care terribly about how much they bloat the street trim version's engine, as long as it still rides like a Ducati superbike ought to. The R is mighty tempting however, and I just might trade in the S I have on order for an R in a few years time, and I'll be cheering for Chaz when he gets on one in 2019.

Hell, despite being 100cc bigger than the competition, I find it quite impressive they managed to keep the weight down as much as they did going to 4 cylinders. I'd be genuinely surprised if the new BMW and Aprilia superbikes are able to match it in that area even if they do more or less similar hp, so power to weight advantage should still go to the Panigale.

Mutt1979 said:

Again, I get what you mean (1199cc twin). I suppose in my mind I'm just thinking the twin was allowed the extra cc, Ducati have made the move to 4 cylinders but don't want to give up that advantage. It's not cheating per say, but if the next gen of jap bikes/BMW/Aprillia etc get 210-215 bhp out of 1000cc then by comparison the Ducati would appear to be the lesser machine no? They've not achieved anything special, it's something any manufacturer could do by increasing the engine displacement.

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Huh? I don't even comprehend your point. Did you say the same thing when Kawasaki went to 636 with their "600". Or Triumph? I can just see the board room at the Japanese companies.... "you mean we could have done that and nobody here thought of it first?"

To Mutt1979

You are very negative, the bike hasn’t even been tested and released to the public.

I admit I am a one eyed Ducati tragic, and as such I have total faith in what they do. I brought the first Panigale under similar circumstances sight unseen and tested, when the so called Ducatisti went into meltdown over the new bike...no trellis frame, no under seat exhausts, no dry clutch, no tooth belts, less midrange than the 1198 etc etc.

If Ducati hadn’t gone that radical they would not be even close in racing SBK which is their focus. They pushed the twin to its limits and now need another radical departure to keep up with the 4’s

They have a great headstart with their motoGP engine and a special test rider in Casey Stoner. So now we will be blessed with a road going version and an R race version.

Ducati know that on the road the engine needed is different to what is required on the track, hence the 1100 road version. The track R will be a 1000 with different characteristics.

As for comparison tests with other 4 cylinder bikes, remember Ducati never do well in tests they are just too different, expensive and needs a committed rider.

I have been waiting a long time to have the opportunity to own a Ducati V4, so I am really excited.

If you don’t like it fine, you can sit back and enjoy how this all unfolds. Me I jumping in the deep end, same as I did with the 1199. Makes life fun and interesting.

jjsC6 said:

Huh? I don't even comprehend your point. Did you say the same thing when Kawasaki went to 636 with their "600". Or Triumph? I can just see the board room at the Japanese companies.... "you mean we could have done that and nobody here thought of it first?"

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My point goes back to the OP. The comparisons made, although I acknowledge they aren't great, are also made to the BMW and the Ape. Although the new Ducati V4 is on top the reality is that either of these other manufacturers could easily replicate, if not better it, by adding the extra displacement to their engines.

It's not who did what first, I just think he does have a fair point. I was just highlighting the other manufacturers are still on 1000cc. Ducati didn't out engineer them, it just added cc.

Mutt1979 said:

My point goes back to the OP. The comparisons made, although I acknowledge they aren't great, are also made to the BMW and the Ape. Although the new Ducati V4 is on top the reality is that either of these other manufacturers could easily replicate, if not better it, by adding the extra displacement to their engines.

It's not who did what first, I just think he does have a fair point. I was just highlighting the other manufacturers are still on 1000cc. Ducati didn't out engineer them, it just added cc.

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And added, twin pulse firing and counter-rotating crank plus the 100cc!!!

jpanigale said:

And added, twin pulse firing and counter-rotating crank plus the 100cc!!!

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I don ´t know why you keep wasting time answering him.:confuso:

Oh I was bored. Waiting for the skittles to take effect....

jpanigale said:

And added, twin pulse firing and counter-rotating crank plus the 100cc!!!

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MV have had a counter rotating crank for some time......

Big bang R1.......

Mutt1979 said:

MV have had a counter rotating crank for some time......

Big bang R1.......

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True, but not all in one engine!!

I know, I know

I've said in another thread, I'm not hating, just sceptical. I just can't get hyped up about it. I want to, I just hope the R is the dogs danglies. But I wanted the V4 generally, not just the R version.

Well ........... I was right about one thing. The V4 is not enough for me to trade in my current R.

However, I have to eat my words again. The V4’s a nice bike man. As in I was impressed, I like it. I’m small too and the seating position for me was great. The tank is massive but when you get your head round that it’s not intrusive. The weather wasn’t great and the pre delivery checks hadn’t been done on the demo bike, but I’ll be test riding Friday if it’s okay.

So I’ve been going on about a lot I didn’t like, but there’s more that I do like. It was actually growing on me as I was going round it.

So I may have an order in for a V4S to sit along side the R.......... I haven’t told the wife yet!!!

Steve B said:

Pretty much this same argument was made at the introduction of the original 1199. Less low end than the 1198, thus a worse bike. I made the point then that the gearing would effectively slide the 1199's curve at a given road speed/gear on top of the 1198's, but that at the point where the 1198 was signing off, the 1199 would be taking off. Which turned out to be the case. Same generally applies here. At a given road speed and gear, the V4 will be turning more RPM (a commodity it has more of to work with), so the fact that it makes less power at say, 6,000 revs is irrelevant. The flatter, broader power curve will make the power more accessible, which they would have been hard-pressed to achieve with a twin. Power to weight won't change significantly, but the useability of that power, plus better handling from the new chassis is what the V4 should bring.

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My video doesn't purport the V4 to be an inferior performer. I clearly state the opposite to be true with regards to track capability, top end, and riding ease. As for wheel axis speed vs torque, these plots were presented at Valencia and the 1299 punishes the V4 when properly scaled. Notice that the two curves are centralized to reduce the apparent 1299 torque advantage. And the most insidious clue is in the absence of torque units in the vertical axis. The press is too drunk on mimosas to notice.


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I'll keep the 1299 as my preferred street and mountain road bike, but I'm sure the V4 is a superior track weapon

Well that’s 17 odd minutes of my life I won’t get back. Aside from all the Star Wars crap it’s purely your assumptions of what the new engine will be. Not the bike, just the engine. No back to back comparison or real world data. Buy a H2R if all you’re interested in is HP.

Area under the curve matters more than max torque. The V4 has enough torque that the slight bit less it has compared to the 1299 will be far outweighed by the fact that the v4 revs so much higher, giving a LOT more area under the curve.

198.58bhp at the back wheel


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Ya that star wars crap was ridiculous i to felt I wasted 18 good minutes. I could have been watching some canadien superbike championship on my DVR. Speaking of odd and useless video I watched a video 2 nights ago on youtube.
It was titled something like first V4 road test. The dude rode a demo V4s at a UK dealership. Waste of time he didnt really compare the V4s to a 1299s. Just rambling...
I wonder if the engine and exhaust heat will be less of a annoyance with the V4. I hope so.

Ponyboy said:

My video doesn't purport the V4 to be an inferior performer. I clearly state the opposite to be true with regards to track capability, top end, and riding ease. As for wheel axis speed vs torque, these plots were presented at Valencia and the 1299 punishes the V4 when properly scaled. Notice that the two curves are centralized to reduce the apparent 1299 torque advantage. And the most insidious clue is in the absence of torque units in the vertical axis. The press is too drunk on mimosas to notice.

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Well, we don't have to depend on those vague press launch graphs anymore, and even using them, we can see that adding a bit of revs to the V4 relative to the V2 puts the HP at a similar or better level. Both bikes are geared for a shade over 190 mph in top gear, with the V4 doing 14K revs to the V2's 10.5K at that speed. The gearing's published for both and a few minutes with gearing commander shows unequivocally the revs at a given speed in any gear, and the V4 is geared to spin more revs throughout the range. Amazing how engineers figure that stuff out...

Twisting the right grip from say, 4K rpm will definitely get you more shove on the 1299 than the V4. Doing same at a given road speed/gear is not so cut and dry. But in any case, I don't think the V4 is about power. The 1299 had more than most mortals could use. It's about ease of use and accessibility.

Heck, even at the GP level all the guys who've come across to Ducati from other brands are remarking on that aspect of the Ducati. And it's not a small thing that Ducati have been pounding the heck out of the basic design of this motor for a long time now; it may be new to the consumer, but it's had a decade plus gestation period. We know that in full MotoGP trim the thing is making closer to 300 than 200hp, so the 214 it's shipping with, at 1100cc's, is a pretty mild tune.

Steve B said:

Well, we don't have to depend on those vague press launch graphs anymore, and even using them, we can see that adding a bit of revs to the V4 relative to the V2 puts the HP at a similar or better level. Both bikes are geared for a shade over 190 mph in top gear, with the V4 doing 14K revs to the V2's 10.5K at that speed. The gearing's published for both and a few minutes with gearing commander shows unequivocally the revs at a given speed in any gear, and the V4 is geared to spin more revs throughout the range. Amazing how engineers figure that stuff out...

Twisting the right grip from say, 4K rpm will definitely get you more shove on the 1299 than the V4. Doing same at a given road speed/gear is not so cut and dry. But in any case, I don't think the V4 is about power. The 1299 had more than most mortals could use. It's about ease of use and accessibility.

Heck, even at the GP level all the guys who've come across to Ducati from other brands are remarking on that aspect of the Ducati. And it's not a small thing that Ducati have been pounding the heck out of the basic design of this motor for a long time now; it may be new to the consumer, but it's had a decade plus gestation period. We know that in full MotoGP trim the thing is making closer to 300 than 200hp, so the 214 it's shipping with, at 1100cc's, is a pretty mild tune.

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As engineers we don't depend on gear commander to do 7th grade reduction calculations. You're talking in circles to arrive at my video's conclusions: V4 easier to ride fast on track, bigger top end. 1299 Better street and canyon bike and doesn't sound like a weed wacker over 7K. Until we ride it, we're all talking out our ass.


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