V4 owners - 15w50 oil reports with testing - Motul 300v / Redline Power Sports / Motul 7100 - Part 1

NYCV4S said:

How so ?

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If you're saying the majority of the ring break in is at 100 mi, why are you still seeing so much alu in your oil 1900 later?

The comment "typical for new engine break-in oil" at the end of your results says it all. By 2k mi, the motor should be broken in. Also, I don't think it matters where you collect the oil from even if you dumped it from the filter housing. That oil and particulate were in your engine at one time. What's trapped in the filter stays in the filter.

SuperDomestique said:

If you're saying the majority of the ring break in is at 100 mi, why are you still seeing so much alu in your oil 1900 later?

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Two reasons.

This oil we are reading is from mile 1000 to 1900. Still considered break in , yes. But these metals were seeing has nothing to do with the rings not being seated as i very well believe that's done very early on , especially in regards to this motor .

The high metals are combined with 2 factors. one being residual oil from the change of 600-1000 miles could very well still be there as these bikes like to store oil upon each change , and final most important factor of why is that i collected this oil from the oil filter housing , my own error by allowing the sump to drain completely before remembering to collect it for sample. Anything residual from the previous mile 600-1000 oil the filter has caught , along with new debris from 1000-1900 and i collected all of that and had it sampled as i had no choice. Seeing aluminum doesn't mean rings aren't seated, it just means the engines breaking in.

found this on the web as well .

""Every Ducati engine is run-in for ten minutes or more on the dyno using a prescribed rpm and temperature sequence. The piston rings seal is mostly complete after this initial test run. The follow-up part of the break-in that you read in your Owners Manual has little to do with piston ring sealing. It’s meant to accommodate the time it takes for normal wear to occur to thousands of mating parts.

The initial break-in period is actually the final finishing step in manufacturing an engine. At the factory, Ducati hones the cylinder walls to a fine finish, grinds cams to accurate, smooth profiles, and makes connecting rod journals to high standards of roundness and accuracy. But, metal surfaces are still microscopically rough, consisting of tiny peaks and valleys. When you start a new engine, these surfaces must slide over each other and wherever the peaks stick up higher than the local oil film thickness, metal hits metal, welds momentarily from the intense local pressure, and then tears away. The oil flushes away these bits of metal, and the oil filter removes them from circulation.

This process works quickly at first, then more slowly as break-in proceeds. Once the high spots are knocked or pushed down, the roughness of the surfaces no longer sticks above the oil films. Piston rings have filed themselves into a fine fit to their cylinders. Bearings spin without metal-to-metal contact, on full oil films.""

NYCV4S said:

""Every Ducati engine is run-in for ten minutes or more on the dyno using a prescribed rpm and temperature sequence. The piston rings seal is mostly complete after this initial test run. The follow-up part of the break-in that you read in your Owners Manual has little to do with piston ring sealing. It’s meant to accommodate the time it takes for normal wear to occur to thousands of mating parts.

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Honda and Yamaha do this as well on their superbikes! I believe ring seating is def done in less than 100mi.

SuperDomestique said:

If you're saying the majority of the ring break in is at 100 mi, why are you still seeing so much alu in your oil 1900 later?

The comment "typical for new engine break-in oil" at the end of your results says it all. By 2k mi, the motor should be broken in. Also, I don't think it matters where you collect the oil from even if you dumped it from the filter housing. That oil and particulate were in your engine at one time. What's trapped in the filter stays in the filter.

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I agree , engine break in takes 2k miles and there is no question about it. But piston rings to be seated are done very very early on & High ZDDP oil shouldn't be used on break in to make sure this effect takes place .

It also says at the bottom of the report "The cold sample from the filter is a likely reason for high copper and aluminum"

Part of me wants to keep testing from the filter housing as i believed that's a good point you made that its coming from the engine anyway , i figured this as well as i was waiting on the sample , but i also very well think what i tested above was some oil particulate from early break in along with the current tested oil combined and wont tell me whats currently going on with this current oil change id be testing. Ether way i dont see any harm.

My next report will show more details. I want to rid the 300v anyway so the sample will be from mile 1900 - 2200 some time in March or April of 2025 i would assume ( NYC here so its cold to ride)

Will be less mileage than my last test , but will show a correct report for the metals since ill drain from the plug, I'm also going to have a dyno run done too so even though its less miles it will have some high rpm runs to it.

NYCV4S said:

Two reasons.

This oil we are reading is from mile 1000 to 1900. Still considered break in , yes. But these metals were seeing has nothing to do with the rings not being seated as i very well believe that's done very early on , especially in regards to this motor .

The high metals are combined with 2 factors. one being residual oil from the change of 600-1000 miles could very well still be there as these bikes like to store oil upon each change , and final most important factor of why is that i collected this oil from the oil filter housing , my own error by allowing the sump to drain completely before remembering to collect it for sample. Anything residual from the previous mile 600-1000 oil the filter has caught , along with new debris from 1000-1900 and i collected all of that and had it sampled as i had no choice. Seeing aluminum doesn't mean rings aren't seated, it just means the engines breaking in.

found this on the web as well .

""Every Ducati engine is run-in for ten minutes or more on the dyno using a prescribed rpm and temperature sequence. The piston rings seal is mostly complete after this initial test run. The follow-up part of the break-in that you read in your Owners Manual has little to do with piston ring sealing. It’s meant to accommodate the time it takes for normal wear to occur to thousands of mating parts.

The initial break-in period is actually the final finishing step in manufacturing an engine. At the factory, Ducati hones the cylinder walls to a fine finish, grinds cams to accurate, smooth profiles, and makes connecting rod journals to high standards of roundness and accuracy. But, metal surfaces are still microscopically rough, consisting of tiny peaks and valleys. When you start a new engine, these surfaces must slide over each other and wherever the peaks stick up higher than the local oil film thickness, metal hits metal, welds momentarily from the intense local pressure, and then tears away. The oil flushes away these bits of metal, and the oil filter removes them from circulation.

This process works quickly at first, then more slowly as break-in proceeds. Once the high spots are knocked or pushed down, the roughness of the surfaces no longer sticks above the oil films. Piston rings have filed themselves into a fine fit to their cylinders. Bearings spin without metal-to-metal contact, on full oil films.""

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Shouldn't residual oil from the previous changes be run through the oil filter with those metal particles being trapped by the filter? Therefore, I'm skeptical that residual oil is contributing to the high copper and alu (I'm not too worried about the copper since the lead is almost nonexistent). But since your alu levels are still high, that means your cylinders are still being broken in or god forbid your pistons are dragging. Will be interesting to see the trend.

But what I'm most concerned about is seeing that you're not riding the bike enough and need to get more miles on the bike more quickly haha!

SuperDomestique said:

Shouldn't residual oil from the previous changes be run through the oil filter with those metal particles being trapped by the filter? Therefore, I'm skeptical that residual oil is contributing to the high copper and alu (I'm not too worried about the copper since the lead is almost nonexistent). But since your alu levels are still high, that means your cylinders are still being broken in or god forbid your pistons are dragging. Will be interesting to see the trend.

But what I'm most concerned about is seeing that you're not riding the bike enough and need to get more miles on the bike more quickly haha!

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Yeah I'm curious as well but i have a feeling ill be okay on this next report. The filter does trap the bigger particles , but my idea of it is that the smaller stuff is still in suspension of the dirty unfiltered oil around the filter , before the filter gets to filter it. If that makes sense , not everything gets trapped so residual will be in the oils since a total oil change is impossible , think small stuff under 10 microns that can get past the filter. ( Speediagnostix test as low as 5 microns of metals)

I was shaking my head the whole time , waiting a while for the small sample bottle to fill up saying this isn't going to come back good lol. Just think that oil was just dragging along the filter & slowly dripping into the sample container taking everything with that it could.

As for riding , Yes! I'm dying to ride more. Between my 3 bikes its hard to get millage on them all throughtout the short N.E seasons. I picked this bike up Oct 31st 2023 brand new and rode as much as i could with the time i have. I also had 3 kids within 30 months, since the first in 2022 , so my hands are full at the moment lol.

NYCV4S said:

not everything gets trapped so residual will be in the oils since a total oil change is impossible , think small stuff under 10 microns that can get past the filter

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Very good point.

You do have your hands full!

Great post!

NYCV4S said:

Yeah I'm curious as well but i have a feeling ill be okay on this next report. The filter does trap the bigger particles , but my idea of it is that the smaller stuff is still in suspension of the dirty unfiltered oil around the filter , before the filter gets to filter it. If that makes sense , not everything gets trapped so residual will be in the oils since a total oil change is impossible , think small stuff under 10 microns that can get past the filter. ( Speediagnostix test as low as 5 microns of metals)

I was shaking my head the whole time , waiting a while for the small sample bottle to fill up saying this isn't going to come back good lol. Just think that oil was just dragging along the filter & slowly dripping into the sample container taking everything with that it could.

As for riding , Yes! I'm dying to ride more. Between my 3 bikes its hard to get millage on them all throughtout the short N.E seasons. I picked this bike up Oct 31st 2023 brand new and rode as much as i could with the time i have. I also had 3 kids within 30 months, since the first in 2022 , so my hands are full at the moment lol.

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3 kids just means you have from 8-10pm to ride. Easy!

NYCV4S said:

I never used redline for break in , i kept the factory stuff in for the first 160 miles then dumped for 300v. Its most likely the High ZDDP in the oil along with anti friction properties of redline that aren't good for initial break in, you typically want low ZDDP on engine break in. but I believe 100-200 miles is enough to seat the piston rings. Anything after that will be the final stages of seating of all other metal parts but what is done within those 100-200 miles matters most IMO . I don't think its anything major to worry about.

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That’s a bit obsessive IMHO. Break in oil change is after 600 miles.

neo2070 said:

That’s a bit obsessive IMHO. Break in oil change is after 600 miles.

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I mean yeah it sure is , can’t you tell this whole testing method of mine is obsessive lol. Been a motor head since a very young age .

I received my SEEDiagnostix kit today and mailed off a new unused sample of new Shell Advance Ducati. I'll post the results when they come in.

SirJAG said:

@VYRUS come take a peek at the data here, your contributions have been good on oil .... in the past...what are your thoughts on redline?

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I like the subject NYCV4S started. His post is well thought out. I feel like I've written so much about oil, that everyone is sick of it. The only brief comment I could add to the discussion, is be aware that Motul 300V has changed the base oil on some versions of 300V. If you see "Organic" on the front of the oil bottle, it is not the traditional Ester synthetic 300V oil. It's still good, just not as good as it was. I suspect they did it to control their production cost. For now, Motul Off Road 300V motorcycle oil is better. Most people will never notice a difference. Another important point. This is for people who are anal about oil. If you use any name brand motorcycle oil & change it every 1,000 miles, you're not going to have any oil related engine failures. This is for owners who like knowing they're using the very best oil & other service products. There's plenty of people who think this stuff is a waste of money & they've never had a problem with cheaper stuff. I'm sure you haven't, For now, it's a free country. You can spend your money on whatever turns your crank.
If NYCV4S is searching for the highest quality motorcycle oil, I would suggest checking out Maxima Extra 10W/60. I've not seen actual test results such as he's done in his opening post, but if the Material Data Sheets are to be believed, Maxima Extra 10W/60 beats every other oil being discussed.
Clarifying the meaning of "Racing Oil" is another confusing subject. The term is just a marketing gimmick. Real "Racing Oils" are very rare & very expensive. They are not good for anything close to normal use. If price was no object, & you could choose between Maxima Extra & real "Racing Oil", I would take Maxima Extra.
A few other useful questions have also come up. One was oil filtration. Super magnets are very useful at removing tiny ferrous metal that's too small for the oil filter. The most common & strongest super magnets are Neodymium (N52). You can get them in any shape, size and strength. N52 is the strongest, I like the K&N oil filter because it has a nut on the bottom of the filter. The nut has a hole for safety wire, which I prefer. However, the nut makes it to easy for a DIY to over tighten the oil filter. I also ordered a donut shaped Nano magnet that fits around the nut on the oil filter. This helps the filter trap any ferrous metal. I've also placed super magnets inside the engine. Samarium Cobalt (SmCo) magnets are better inside the engine. SmCo magnets maintain their strength at higher temperatures. I put them under a titanium bolt in a location that doesn't interfere with any sensor. In the off chance something happens inside the engine, they're a simple way to minimize or prevent a bigger problem.
Lastly, about Break-in oil. While the factory may run the new engine for 10 minutes, that's not enough for the actual Break-in. That first 10 minutes will produce the most new engine junk. I know everyone is excited to ride their new bike home from the dealer. But you're better off trailering it home & changing the oil & filter before you ride the bike. There are several companies who offer Break-in oil. If you have a dry clutch, it's much easier. It's the wet clutch which is trickier. Motul has a 10W/40 Break-in oil. Driven & Amsoil also have Break-in oils. These oil help the piston rings seat into the cylinder walls faster. Break-in oils also lay down a layer of zinc (ZDDP) throughout the engine. This is really important. Never use oil additives that claim they'll add zinc to your oil. Oil is a complex blend of chemicals. Zinc can really upset the chemical balance. It's much better to use an oil that was designed with high zinc. The EPA says zinc poisons the catalytic converter. I've covered this subject, so I'll not bore you with any more talk. You shouldn't use a synthetic oil for break-in. Put magnets ASAP on your new engine. Break-in oils are always conventional mineral oil. For the first 500 or 600 miles, ride like you have your Mother-in-law on the bike. You don't want her thinking her daughter married a sissy, but you also don't want her taking her lovely daughter to her favorite Divorce Lawyer.

Interesting discussion and data. My dealer had said 300V was good to 3K for street use. Was contemplating 7100 but might switch to RL. Have several bikes plus a sports car so usually less than 3K on each per yr. Pretty relaxed riding by V4 Pani standards

37NG900X said:

Interesting discussion and data. My dealer had said 300V was good to 3K for street use. Was contemplating 7100 but might switch to RL. Have several bikes plus a sports car so usually less than 3K on each per yr. Pretty relaxed riding by V4 Pani standards

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My oil sample from 700-3000 miles using 7100 were pretty ugly. Also going to give RL a try