V4S offset triples - school me

About to pull the trigger on triples for my track V4S. Can someone school me on the options? Stock offset is 30 mm? What are race bikes going to? 28? Or lower? I remember back from my 848 days that 28mm offsets would make the tire rub the belly pan under hard braking. Any of those clearance issues to watch out for with the V4S?

At what offset do you need longer forks? Asked another way, how low can I go on the offsets with stock ohlins forks (Don’t know their length)

My goal is to increase trail and thereby increase front-end stability. Extra rigidity benefits are incidental and welcome, but doing this to dial out the headshake while leaned over and decel/braking.

Thanks all.

Tom take a look at the PM I sent you. I have those on my bike as do a bunch of other people

TomFoolery said:

About to pull the trigger on triples for my track V4S. Can someone school me on the options? Stock offset is 30 mm? What are race bikes going to? 28? Or lower? I remember back from my 848 days that 28mm offsets would make the tire rub the belly pan under hard braking. Any of those clearance issues to watch out for with the V4S?

At what offset do you need longer forks? Asked another way, how low can I go on the offsets with stock ohlins forks (Don’t know their length)

My goal is to increase trail and thereby increase front-end stability. Extra rigidity benefits are incidental and welcome, but doing this to dial out the headshake while leaned over and decel/braking.

Thanks all.

Click to expand...

Stock is 30 mm. Increasing trail increases stability. Decreasing trail decreases stability. Trail affects self-centering. Running more fork tube above the triple increases rake and therefore decreases trail and vice versa.

No offense it seems like you’re running in circles with the suspension on your bike. It may be worthwhile to hire someone to suss out what you’re looking for at the track either through Dave Moss or some other local suspension specialist before going with new triples. That is unless your suspension specialist advised them…

rac1ngsnak3 said:

Stock is 30 mm. Increasing trail increases stability. Decreasing trail decreases stability. Trail affects self-centering. Running more fork tube above the triple increases rake and therefore decreases trail and vice versa.

No offense it seems like you’re running in circles with the suspension on your bike. It may be worthwhile to hire someone to suss out what you’re looking for at the track either through Dave Moss or some other local suspension specialist before going with new triples. That is unless your suspension specialist advised them…

Click to expand...

Dude already did the Dave moss thing and did what he suggested, didn’t help. Then did a round 2 with a local suspension builder who revalved front and back. Only marginal improvement.

There’s very little downsides to triples and usually just the added rigidity alone is worth it. Gotta eliminate one component at a time…

How much fork do you have coming out of the triple clamps right now? I don’t think your bike should be shaking on decel, I’d bet you have a setup flaw somewhere. My bike is setup decently and I can hammer the brakes down from 180 without any shaking, I brake hard enough too where I do lift the back end. Corner exit is another story though…. I’m not saying new triples aren’t a bad idea, but it might not cure your problem if you have other stuff going on too.

Im gonna buy Evol triples for my r1 race bike, you can get every insert possible with them to try different setups.

brad8266 said:

How much fork do you have coming out of the triple clamps right now? I don’t think your bike should be shaking on decel, I’d bet you have a setup flaw somewhere. My bike is setup decently and I can hammer the brakes down from 180 without any shaking. Corner exit is another story though….

Click to expand...

Shaking on decel/braking only when leaned over and already going 90+. No problems braking at the end of the straight with the bike stood up.

Still have mild pumping on corner exit, going to shorten the rear shock sunday and see if that helps. @RickD996 said that helped him.

TomFoolery said:

Shaking on decel/braking only when leaned over and already going 90+. No problems braking at the end of the straight with the bike stood up.

Still have mild pumping on corner exit, going to shorten the rear shock sunday and see if that helps. @RickD996 said that helped him.

Click to expand...

How much fork do you have showing though and for that matter how many threads do you have showing on the rear ride height bolt on the bottom of the shock?

brad8266 said:

How much fork do you have showing though?

Click to expand...

I’ll take a picture on sunday,. The 18s had more fork showing than the 2020 model when they lifted the front end up a bit. I pushed the forks lower down and made it similar to the 2020s (there is another 2020 V4S in my paddock) but it didn’t do much. However, that was before revalving the front and lowering rear ride height. I will try lifting the front end again and see if it helps now.

TomFoolery said:

I’ll take a picture on sunday,. The 18s had more fork showing than the 2020 model when they lifted the front end up a bit. I pushed the forks lower down and made it similar to the 2020s (there is another 2020 V4S in my paddock) but it didn’t do much. However, that was before revalving the front and lowering rear ride height. I will try lifting the front end again and see if it helps now.

Click to expand...

Also need to keep in mind the tire you run can make a significant difference as well. For example, the Pirelli super bikes stopped being made in the sizes they had up until a few months ago and are now larger in overall diameter, to the degree that if you run a new rear and an old front, you will put a bit more front bias on the bike, I could definitely feel the difference in handling. Then when I put the matching front on it regained balance again. My point of mentioning that is that there are a lot of variables in play and you have to experiment and see what works for you. If it’s shaking too much, start with lifting the front end up and see how it behaves.

My shock is set to 314mm of length (6/7 threads showing on the ride height nut) and I run anywhere from 2-4mm showing through my triple clamps depending on the track. Anything more and it’s too front biased and unstable for my liking. Now that race season is over and I may do some street riding I moved the forks back flush with the triples and may even lower the shock a little.

can always crank up the steering damper to try to kill the shake too.

brad8266 said:

Also need to keep in mind the tire you run can make a significant difference as well. For example, the Pirelli super bikes stopped being made in the sizes they had up until a few months ago and are now larger in overall diameter, to the degree that if you run a new rear and an old front, you will put a bit more front bias on the bike, I could definitely feel the difference in handling. Then when I put the matching front on it regained balance again. My point of mentioning that is that there are a lot of variables in play and you have to experiment and see what works for you. If it’s shaking too much, start with lifting the front end up and see how it behaves.

My shock is set to 314mm of length (6/7 threads showing on the ride height nut) and I run anywhere from 2-4mm showing through my triple clamps depending on the track. Anything more and it’s too front biased and unstable for my liking. Now that race season is over and I may do some street riding I moved the forks back flush with the triples and may even lower the shock a little.

can always crank up the steering damper to try to kill the shake too.

Click to expand...

I am now on the new spec 125x70 front and 200x65 rear SC3 Slicks.

What‘s your way of adjusting the ride height on the rear shock? Lift the bike on the footpegs, remove rear wheel and drop the shock? Or can you adjust the shock with it still attached? I am running termis so it seems there is enough roon down there, however hard to tell without actually dropping the wheel and unloading the rear suspension.

TomFoolery said:

I am now on the new spec 125x70 front and 200x65 rear SC3 Slicks.

What‘s your way of adjusting the ride height on the rear shock? Lift the bike on the footpegs, remove rear wheel and drop the shock? Or can you adjust the shock with it still attached?

Click to expand...

That’s the same tires I run now, just in SC1.

All you have to do on the rear is take the linkage bar off since it kind of blocks the ride height nut and makes it hard to get a wrench in. What I do to save time is pull the rear wheel off then put a floor jack under the rear shock to support it, then remove the linkage and make the adjustment. I can do it between sessions with plenty of time to spare.

TomFoolery said:

Shaking on decel/braking only when leaned over and already going 90+. No problems braking at the end of the straight with the bike stood up.

Still have mild pumping on corner exit, going to shorten the rear shock sunday and see if that helps. @RickD996 said that helped him.

Click to expand...

Have you tried reducing engine braking? This doesn't sound like a geometry issue unless your forks are falling too fast through the stroke but you would really notice that. I have the evol triple clamps I will post some pics if I can find them. I am doing some motospec calculations for another member here on his lengthened swingarm so I will do some with different offsets and see what comes out. I'm back from holidays Monday will look then

Those Evol triples look sexy….I’m running the IMA setup and love it, very stiff, very stable front end for me now, I increased the trail by a good margin and didn’t feel like I gave up much on turn in to gain the stability I got out of it.

Full disclosure though, I’ve only had one track day on the bike and don’t push it nearly as hard as you guys yet, but on empty canyon roads that I know well I’m hanging pretty far off the bike and accelerating as hard as she’ll pull off an apex using a 15/44 tooth sprocket setup, so she pulls HARD off an apex

Other than some wheely that I have to lean forward on it feels stable enough now that even as a relatively novice rider I’m confidence enough to give her the beans off an apex.

Not so before with the trail set to stock configuration even after working with Dave Moss of setup raising the triples to the very top of the shock….might be a bunch of little things working together, but increasing the trail using the new triples made the biggest difference for me after getting everything else set right.

Plus just the extra stiffness of the front end in general was a noticeable improvement…but full disclosure again, I’m ‘down to’ about 265 pounds in full riding gear, so I was probably making that stock triple flex more than most of you…the IMA tightened all of that up.

@Steven31371 you convinced me. @cycler is checking availability of the IMA triples for me now.

OK goal is to make the bike on the right handle like the bike on the left (260 lbs wet). I'm about $5500 into setup on the V4S now and, and generally very irritated and grumpy (if you guys cannot tell lol) that a flagship Ducati takes $5500 to make track worthy and it doesn't even have race bodywork on yet! Jesus Ducati, stop selling to the starbucks crowd and make your flagship superbikes ready to race. It's not like I bought a scrambler.... OK ok, end rant.

TomFoolery said:

@Steven31371 you convinced me. @cycler is checking availability of the IMA triples for me now.

OK goal is to make the bike on the right handle like the bike on the left (260 lbs wet). I'm about $5500 into setup on the V4S now and, and generally very irritated and grumpy (if you guys cannot tell lol) that a flagship Ducati takes $5500 to make track worthy and it doesn't even have race bodywork on yet! Jesus Ducati, stop selling to the starbucks crowd and make your flagship superbikes ready to race. It's not like I bought a scrambler.... OK ok, end rant.

View attachment 39685

View attachment 39686

Click to expand...

Go to 4mm of fork showing and give it a try again. That appears to be probably a little too much showing through those forks. My v4s is sensitive to that. I go no more than 4mm showing and ride with 2mm most of the time.

brad8266 said:

Go to 4mm of fork showing and give it a try again. That appears to be probably a little too much showing through those forks. My v4s is sensitive to that. I go no more than 4mm showing and ride with 2mm most of the time.

Click to expand...

Will do, thanks. I plan to check/measure and lower rear shock tomorrow. Will also push the forks through some more.

Kramer will have a new batch ready by February or April…that’s not Soooo far off

Hate to say it, but to get it to handle anywhere close to like the Kramer you are probably gunna need to put another $8k into the Ducati.

i.e. ThysenKrupp wheels and Sicom rotors.

nothing will ever get the bike to the lightness of the Kramer and how that feels, but if you remove 15 pounds of so of rotating mass off the bike it FEELS like you removed 50 pounds from the bike.

It was the COMBINATION of dramatically reducing the gyroscopic forces on the bike via reduced rotating mass weight, with adding stability via more trail that got the bike feeling really really good for me.

You guys do realize that the Kramer is a race bike from the ground up? And the V4 is a street bike with lights, emissions, mirrors, etc. You’re never going to get a V4 to feel like a Kramer because of this. A Kramer weighs 275 wet while a V4 is 430. Not even all the Corse parts and carbon fiber will get you 150 lbs. smh

On the flip side, the Kramer will only do 160 mph max (and that might be a stretch) down the straight while a V4 will push 180-190.