V4S offset triples - school me

brad8266 said:

Oil level/air gap different way to say the same thing, which is the distance from the top of the fork to where the oil starts.

V4s spec is 230mm with spring and preload tube removed. R is probably somewhere close to that since the overall forks are similar.

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The required oil level can also change depending on whether the cartridges are open or closed, the information I gave is very generic and really only for comparison.

This is a comparison with different fork heights, first one is stock second is forks flush with the triple clamp third is fork flush but with 25mm offset.

Bruce Wayne said:

This is a comparison with different fork heights, first one is stock second is forks flush with the triple clamp third is fork flush but with 25mm offset.

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OK thanks again. You made me read my owner's manual for the Kramer. Looks like it was setup stock at 28mm offset with 101.68mm trail. I have the insert to go to a 26mm offset if needed.

TomFoolery said:

OK thanks again. You made me read my owner's manual for the Kramer. Looks like it was setup stock at 28mm offset with 101.68mm trail. I have the insert to go to a 26mm offset if needed.

View attachment 39706

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The v4S has same offset as the V4R

With regards to your particular issue I'm not convinced it's purely geometry related, our S1000rr had similar issues until we changed to a good quality slipper clutch, we wanted a decent amount of engine braking but bike was unsettled in fast corner entry while trail braking. We've had no issues with head shaking on our V4R but that comes STD with an stm slipper clutch. The pumping on corner exit is rear Link, you can reduce it but will never get rid of it with the STD link

This is the link I made for our V4R, I also fitted needle roller bearings instead of the bushes on the STD link to reduce stiction

Bruce Wayne said:

With regards to your particular issue I'm not convinced it's purely geometry related, our S1000rr had similar issues until we changed to a good quality slipper clutch, we wanted a decent amount of engine braking but bike was unsettled in fast corner entry while trail braking. We've had no issues with head shaking on our V4R but that comes STD with an stm slipper clutch. The pumping on corner exit is rear Link, you can reduce it but will never get rid of it with the STD link

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Interesting thought. Since mine is an 18, I am on the first gen software /engine map/fueling. I can get Evo 2 software flashed, but I thought Evo 2 was just traction control? Maybe they adjusted engine braking and other gas on/off parameters also? I will explore this.

TomFoolery said:

Wow thank you for sharing this. This is fascinating and very useful information.

1. I assume that if you go to something as drastic as 25mm offset, you need taller forks or fork extensions of some sort?
2. Is the oil height specified at 200 mm the same as air gap? If it's not the same, do you know what the 200 mm of oil volume equates to for air gap? I thought that air gap and oil level denoted the same thing and I thought the lower the number the more oil volume in the forks aka stiffer forks. I have mine at 150mm and cannot believe that a V4R will be setup with less oil?

My 2018 was 'corrected' with 10.0 springs in front (from 10.5 factory) and 90 spring in rear (from 95 factory). The preload settings my suspension builder set me up with also match that spec sheet. That is encouraging, however brings me back to square one in terms of explaining why I can't the bike to behave at all even after all this.

Does anyone know if the triple clamps in the V4R were different than the V4S / base model?

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Tracked down a direct line phone number to a tech at Ohlins who was very generous with his time talking to me, one of the little tidbits he told me was that putting more oil, less air in the shock does not make it stiffer throughout the range of movement, it just has an affect on helping it not bottom out in the last 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of travel.

Spring rate and valving is what actually changes the base characteristics throughout the range of travel.

Im
Sure you know all that stuff though lol

Bruce Wayne said:

View attachment 39707
This is the link I made for our V4R, I also fitted needle roller bearings instead of the bushes on the STD link to reduce stiction

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Bruce Wayne said:

View attachment 39707
This is the link I made for our V4R, I also fitted needle roller bearings instead of the bushes on the STD link to reduce stiction

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Looks like the one I just got from HSBK…I’d be interested in comparing the measurements of the one I ordered to yours, yours looks a bit shorter on the back side of the triangle….but that could just be camera angles.

Steven31371 said:

Looks like the one I just got from HSBK…I’d be interested in comparing the measurements of the one I ordered to yours, yours looks a bit shorter on the back side of the triangle….but that could just be camera angles.

Home :: Parts :: Ducati :: V4 :: Suspension :: Links / Ride Height Bars :: FM Ducati V4 V4S V4R Panigele Rear Linear Suspension Link (2018 To 2021)

FM Ducati V4 V4S V4R Panigele Rear Linear Suspension Link 2018 To 2021 The Ducati linear suspension link has a new and optimized geometry compared to the other links out there This link makes the rising rate more linear You will have a better feel of the bike when exiting a curve which means you...

www.hsbkracing.com

View attachment 39709View attachment 39710View attachment 39711

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I wasn't aware there was an aftermarket one yet. I made mine a year ago

Steven31371 said:

Looks like the one I just got from HSBK…I’d be interested in comparing the measurements of the one I ordered to yours, yours looks a bit shorter on the back side of the triangle….but that could just be camera angles.

Home :: Parts :: Ducati :: V4 :: Suspension :: Links / Ride Height Bars :: FM Ducati V4 V4S V4R Panigele Rear Linear Suspension Link (2018 To 2021)

FM Ducati V4 V4S V4R Panigele Rear Linear Suspension Link 2018 To 2021 The Ducati linear suspension link has a new and optimized geometry compared to the other links out there This link makes the rising rate more linear You will have a better feel of the bike when exiting a curve which means you...

www.hsbkracing.com

View attachment 39709View attachment 39710View attachment 39711

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Might have to do this

KarlKani said:

Might have to do this

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I’ll get some measurements on mine today. Bruce is already being VERY generous with his time, but I’d be very interested in getting some comparison measurements…as he knows from direct experience that his geometry on the part works.

I read that Ducati changed the spec on the rear shock link for the 2022 bikes, probably to solve a known issue, that FM and guys like Bruce figured out ahead of them.

Steven31371 said:

…Spring rate and valving is what actually changes the base characteristics throughout the range of travel…

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Increasing oil viscosity does too. Dave Moss references this routinely.

craig bush said:

Increasing oil viscosity does too. Dave Moss references this routinely.

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I think this is one of those eternal debates with no clear answer. My suspension person swears that the valve stack is specifically designed to work with a certain oil viscosity and frowns upon simply switching to a thicker oil. But I do know what you mean about Dave Moss being in favor.

Do not change oil viscosity! Change air gap or springs

TomFoolery said:

I think this is one of those eternal debates with no clear answer. My suspension person swears that the valve stack is specifically designed to work with a certain oil viscosity and frowns upon simply switching to a thicker oil. But I do know what you mean about Dave Moss being in favor.

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Yep. For clarification, I’m no subject matter expert and didn’t mean for my comment to sound like a recommendation. I was only making a pragmatic observation of the fact that oil viscosity is another factor that affects overall damping.

TomFoolery said:

I think this is one of those eternal debates with no clear answer. My suspension person swears that the valve stack is specifically designed to work with a certain oil viscosity and frowns upon simply switching to a thicker oil. But I do know what you mean about Dave Moss being in favor.

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By changing the oil viscosity you are essentially re-valving the shock because you are changing the flow perimeters of the valving.

Kinda of a poor man’s re-valving, it just a quick way to do it and get SOME benefit. You may also be placing a lot more wear on the valving mechanisms by doing so.

For sure the best way to do it is to have your shocks custom valved for your weight and driving style.

There is a lot of subjectiveness in this process when doing it for a car, because it’s about driver feel when dancing the car on the limits and throttle and brake steering to rebalance the car onto the desired wheels front/back-side-to-side …but with the bikes it’s more straight forward, either the bike is stably holding the line or not.


Although I’m not at a riding level where I’m throttle steering the rear end of the bike around curves at 90 mph and maybe never will be so there’s that lol

I've had a lot of pumping on the throttle as well, would love to hear anyones experience with the linear link on the V4

TomFoolery said:

I think this is one of those eternal debates with no clear answer. My suspension person swears that the valve stack is specifically designed to work with a certain oil viscosity and frowns upon simply switching to a thicker oil. But I do know what you mean about Dave Moss being in favor.

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So does my suspension guy and he was trained by Moss. He will adjust valving instead of swapping oil weight.

Yeah I’m not so sure about this whole changing oil is the “poor man’s revalving”. No credible Ohlins shop will use non-Ohlins oil. If a shop offers that, walk away. Additionally, changing shims on a TTX is relatively simple and can be done without disassembling the entire shock. Again, a reputable Ohlins shop can do this and can potentially be done on bike.

The odd thing that baffles me is that Ducati test riders - literally professional riders with years of experience whose sole responsibility is to sort out these bikes - can make them work without any geometry changes or radical suspension changes even on the track. I get that dialing in a bike using basic suspension parameters (the correct springs for your weight and then tailor in comp/rebound) is necessary. But changing triples, extending swingarms, changing shim stacks, linkages, etc etc is waaaaay overkill for even for the club racer especially with a V4.

There’s a reason that it takes a team to run a bike with these big modifications. But even then, it’s to make gains in the hundredths and tenths of a sec

The limiting factor isn’t the bike, rather it’s the person sitting on it. An avid track day rider won’t truly take advantage of these radical suspension changes. They won’t fix ...... riding technique.

This change in ”feel” will be mostly a placebo effect if anything. You‘ll be complicating an already sorted platform when the thing that needs to be changed is honing your skills with more practice.

If you’re making these changes without a person like Bruce or roadracerx (which I’m surprised they offer this knowledge and experience for free because you really should be paying for it) or similar that can exploit these nuanced parts, you’re doing it wrong. But if you want to throw money at a problem and see what sticks by all means have at it.