Was wandering if anyone had any advice for running the 1299 Panigale S down the Strip

Chaotic · Jul 25, 2016

Cosmik de Bris said:
Yes but that's not what you said, you said LC only controls the RPM, it doesn't, it controls the torque.

No. it does not "control" the torque. It limits the RPM to the range where the most torque is made. In theory, that is where every bike should be launched...the RPM where the bike makes the most torque, not necessarily HP.

So rather than having to modulate the throttle while also looking at the lights, the rider just has to keep the throttle pinned and the APRC will hold the RPMs at where the motor makes peak torque.

I don't know why you are trying to argue semantics. The damn point I was making is that LC isn't some kind of "auto-holeshot" device. You still have to find the engagement point, modulate the clutch, shift into 2nd, etc. It is still easy to .... up a launch with LC...including popping the front wheel up losing drive, even so far as looping the bike.

For your information, I own an RSV4 and raced one for 2 years. I know exactly how the .... works.

Caribbean Rider · Jul 25, 2016

We have been doing dragstrip for some time now, only thing I miss on my 1299 Pani is a power shifter from pro-shift. Like to order it one of these days.

What are the times you guys do on the ¼ mile?

Cosmik de Bris · Jul 26, 2016

Chaotic said:
No. it does not "control" the torque. It limits the RPM to the range where the most torque is made. In theory, that is where every bike should be launched...the RPM where the bike makes the most torque, not necessarily HP.

So rather than having to modulate the throttle while also looking at the lights, the rider just has to keep the throttle pinned and the APRC will hold the RPMs at where the motor makes peak torque.

I don't know why you are trying to argue semantics. The damn point I was making is that LC isn't some kind of "auto-holeshot" device. You still have to find the engagement point, modulate the clutch, shift into 2nd, etc. It is still easy to .... up a launch with LC...including popping the front wheel up losing drive, even so far as looping the bike.

For your information, I own an RSV4 and raced one for 2 years. I know exactly how the .... works.

Perhaps you could start by reading the manual, it explains it in there, or there are various videos that demonstrate it as well. Perhaps you have an old RSV4 but the newer ones have much more elaborate control software.

You may have raced one but you obviously don't know how "the ...." works, you obviously haven't tried it. With the Aprilia LC you can hold the throttle wide open and the tach will sit at 10,000 RPM, after you feed the clutch out the torque is controlled by first retarding timing to limit wheel spin and front wheel lift. There are three levels of control. This control is released to the standard TC and WC when third gear is selected or the speed reaches 160kM/Hr. You can almost drop the clutch, and I have on many occasions, it is pretty hairy but the bike does not loop, of course it loses drive and pops the front wheel that is the whole point.

The LC I have on my Panigale is more like you describe, it limits the launch RPM to a figure selected by the rider and then after a time delay also rider selected it allows the RPMs to rise.

Chaotic · Jul 27, 2016

I do not have an old one. I have a 2013 and the APRC is the same as the current model. Yes I know exactly how it works, I have used it many times.

One more ....... time, my original point was that launching the bike is still on you. It is not an "auto-holeshot" button. You can (and people do) still .... up the launch with LC activated. I have personally seen it many times.

Cosmik de Bris · Jul 27, 2016

Chaotic said:
I do not have an old one. I have a 2013 and the APRC is the same as the current model. Yes I know exactly how it works, I have used it many times.

One more ....... time, my original point was that launching the bike is still on you. It is not an "auto-holeshot" button. You can (and people do) still .... up the launch with LC activated. I have personally seen it many times.

And your original point is still wrong and repeating it doesn't change anything. You may have used LC on your bike but you have been doing it incorrectly. It is an auto-holeshot system.

You originally said:

"The ONLY thing Launch Control does (on bikes that have it, which our Panigale does not) is limit the RPMs."

This is clearly false, both the Aprilias and ZX10R have proper LC systems and make sure it is used in their advertising.

Here is the official Aprilia video which explains how it works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKaRO3caWsk

And there are plenty of videos showing people trying it out. You won't look of course because you know all about "this ....".

Could you explain how you use it so I can see where you are going wrong?

Chaotic · Jul 28, 2016

No it is not an auto-holeshot button. Even guys with WSBK and MotoGP level electronics get poor launches, pop the front wheel up too much, bog down getting off the line, so on and so forth. To think that basic OEM launch control is an auto-holeshot device is silly.

I have seen all the video's, read all the articles and manuals. Perhaps I should have said "for all intents and purposes" in my original comment. I had no idea somebody was going to pick apart every ....... word and argue semantics, just for the sake of arguing. I assumed a bit of "real world" application and/or common sense would be applied to the context of my statement.

When I said that is "all it did", I meant from the riders perspective, meaning it doesn't eliminate any of the other things the rider has to do and concentrate on in order to get a good launch. You still have to find the engagement point, concentrate on the lights, smoothly release the clutch, shift into 2nd at the right time, etc.

It is still very easy to get a poor launch with LC, as we see on every level, including WSBK and MotoGP. I guess those guys just aren't as good at utilizing LC as you are.

Fragile · Jul 28, 2016

Yup if LC was a do it all holeshot device then there wouldn't be a need to have adjustable settings. I concur with Chaotic's assessment. All the other logic expressed from Mr. Chaotic makes perfect sense IMO. Just watched the Aprilia LC video like a Chinese film having to read the English text on the screen. From it one can deduce all the limitations of the system. Most of the launch is still dependent on rider skill, no doubt. YMMV

Chaotic · Jul 28, 2016

Fragile said:
Yup if LC was a do it all holeshot device then there wouldn't be a need to have adjustable settings. I concur with Chaotic's assessment. All the other logic expressed from Mr. Chaotic makes perfect sense IMO. Just watched the Aprilia LC video like a Chinese film having to read the English text on the screen. From it one can deduce all the limitations of the system. Most of the launch is still dependent on rider skill, no doubt. YMMV

My point exactly.

ChrisE · Jul 28, 2016

The Aprilia launch control is exactly that, when set, hold the throttle wide open, ECU will set the rpm's at about 9500, drop the clutch. ECU will control launch speed and wheelie.

Have I been brave enough to try it? No....

[youtube]fYUiqOTU0sA[/youtube]

Chaotic · Jul 28, 2016

They didn't show his clutch hand. But from what it looked like in the video, he didn't just "drop" the clutch. You still have to control/modulate the clutch.

Once again, watch any MotoGP or WSBK race (or MotoAmerica race for that matter). You will see that some people get great launches, some don't. Some wheelie a lot, some don't. Some bog down, some don't.

And they are running with Motel or Marelli systems that cost a lot more than our whole bikes cost.

If what you said was true, and LC was an auto-holeshot button, then every single rider would launch the exact same way, at the same speed, with the same velocity, and the only variable would be the HP/torque differences of the bikes. In other words, if it worked like you said it did, then when everyone arrived at the braking zone for T1, everyone would be spaced out exactly like they are on the starting grid, just further down the track. Anybody that has ever seen a race at any level knows damn well that isn't the case.

Have you guys ever actually raced? If so, then you should/would know all of this without me saying it. Launching ALWAYS comes down to the rider. Some are good at it, some aren't.

ChrisE · Jul 28, 2016

Yes I hold a race license, CMRA #874, and agree with all that you are saying, just wanted to point out that the V4 Aprilia's have Launch Control built in, that's all.

Three different levels for various level of control. The Launch Control overrides Wheelie and Traction control until 3rd gear is selected or the speed exceeds 90mph, it then reverts back to the Wheelie and Traction Control settings.

The manual states to just release the clutch as normal.

Lot's of videos out there, just can't find one showing the clutch use.

From my understanding, the modulation of the engine is ECU controlled, not by the riders right wrist and no fine clutch control is necessary, as normally required from a race type start.

Taken from the Owners manual

ALC launch control is a specific functioning scenario for the traction control system which takes into consideration the fact that initial speed is zero. Once the LAUNCH control function is activated and the throttle is opened completely, the engine speed increases to and is maintained at approximately 9,500 rpm, irrespective of the level set. The LAUNCH function is automatically deactivated in the event of any of the three following situations:
"¢ A gear higher than second is se- lected;
"¢ Vehicle speed exceeds 145 Km/ h (90.10 mph).
To activate ALC in the level selected previously from the menu, with the vehicle stationary, simultaneously press and hold "+" and "-" for at least 3 seconds, until the message "LAUNCH" (in ROAD display mode) or "L" (in RACE display mode) is shown on the digital display.
When ALC is activated, the ATC and AWC systems are automatically deacti- vated and remain so until the ALC function is exited ALC (message cleared from digital display). Once the ALC function is exited, the ATC and AWC systems resume operation with the settings selected previously.

CAUTION
DURING THE INITIAL STAGE OF ALC FUNCTION (DURING CLUTCH RELEASE), THE SYSTEM HELPS THE RIDER KEEP THE FRONT WHEEL AS CLOSE TO THE GROUND AS POSSIBLE.
DURING THE SECOND STAGE OF ALC FUNCTION (WITH THE CLUTCH LEVER COMPLETELY RELEASED), THE OBJECTIVE OF THE SYSTEM IS TO HELP THE RIDER MAXIMISE VEHICLE ACCELERATION IN RELATION TO THE ALC LEVEL SELECTED. DURING THE SECOND STAGE OF OPERATION, THE SYSTEM ALLOWS THE FRONT WHEEL TO LIFT FROM THE GROUND TO MAXIMISE ACCELERATION.

Chaotic · Jul 28, 2016

Like I said, I own an RSV4 and raced it for 2 years (for this year I replaced it with the 1299S and turned it back into a street bike). I am fully aware that it has LC.

That is my RSV4 that I am on in my avatar.

This is mine:

That is correct, no throttle modulation is required. You can hold the throttle pinned and the ECU will limit the revs to a certain point (dictated by which setting you have it at). You don't have to work the throttle.

BUT, clutch engagement and modulation IS up to the rider. That is my point.

Like I said, getting a good launch is ALWAYS up to the rider. It is NOT an auto-holeshot button. That case holds true all the way up to MotoGP, it damn sure holds true on the basic OEM electronics on the RSV4/Tuono.

Fragile · Jul 28, 2016

"just release the clutch as normal".. This is sales speak, trying to make the consumer feel like releasing the clutch is a piece of cake and insignificant part of the take off or LC, diverting the importance of this step. There is no releasing the clutch as normal. There are a gazillion ways to release the clutch, from stalling it at low rpm, to feathering it smoothly through a parking lot, to dumping it like an ....., haha. YMMV.

TurboLag · Jul 28, 2016

I don't know about the LC on the APRC, but the one supplied by tuneboy works in 4 phases:

1: 1st gear, hold the clutch, pin the throttle. RPM goes to a secondary RPM limiter at a set rpm.
2: Accelerate the first part by modulating the clutch. This sequence can be botched up by poor clutch control, as pointed out by Chaotic.
3: When the clutch is fully out, the clutch switch is deactivated and the LC holds the rpm for a set time (up to 0.5 seconds or something like that).
4: A sweep, meaning you can set how long it should take for the rpm to go from the set secondary limiter to max rpm.

All this still means that dumping the clutch would still mean the bike going airborne. It's a good help, meaning you don't need to worry about the throttle hand until you reach 2nd gear, but it's no "auto holeshot" feature. Bouncing on the tire in the 3rd phase could still potentially send the nose towards the sky as you enter phase 4.

Cosmik de Bris · Jul 28, 2016

Chaotic said:
No it is not an auto-holeshot button. Even guys with WSBK and MotoGP level electronics get poor launches, pop the front wheel up too much, bog down getting off the line, so on and so forth. To think that basic OEM launch control is an auto-holeshot device is silly.

I don't know what the motogp system is, we were discussing the Aprilia system.

Chaotic said:
I have seen all the video's, read all the articles and manuals. Perhaps I should have said "for all intents and purposes" in my original comment. I had no idea somebody was going to pick apart every ....... word and argue semantics, just for the sake of arguing. I assumed a bit of "real world" application and/or common sense would be applied to the context of my statement.

Ah so now you are backing out of your original stance. I'm only picking you apart because you gave wrong information in saying that all other LC systems just limit RPMs, they don't. You also said they don't control torque, they do.

Chaotic said:
When I said that is "all it did", I meant from the riders perspective, meaning it doesn't eliminate any of the other things the rider has to do and concentrate on in order to get a good launch. You still have to find the engagement point, concentrate on the lights, smoothly release the clutch, shift into 2nd at the right time, etc.

Well of course, nobody expects an LC system to steer the bike for you.

Chaotic said:
It is still very easy to get a poor launch with LC, as we see on every level, including WSBK and MotoGP. I guess those guys just aren't as good at utilizing LC as you are.

Again we are not discussing motogp, and we don't see it at every level. I get pretty consistent launches with LC, one magazine writer said he got his best times using LC. It is pretty ..... proof, almost anyone can use it successfully.

Look man you are just plain wrong, you have no idea how LC works and I seriously doubt you have ever tried it.

Cosmik de Bris · Jul 28, 2016

ChrisE said:
The Aprilia launch control is exactly that, when set, hold the throttle wide open, ECU will set the rpm's at about 9500, drop the clutch. ECU will control launch speed and wheelie.

Have I been brave enough to try it? No....

[youtube]fYUiqOTU0sA[/youtube]

Yes, that's all there is to it, although dropping the clutch can be a bit hairy, you still get away with it OK though. You are best just to feed the clutch in but you can do it quite rapidly. The first time I tried it I decided to just trust it, I set it to the most aggressive position and dropped the clutch, the wheelie in first was pretty scary but it didn't go over, it held for 2nd and slowly lowered in 3rd. Feeding the clutch out gives more consistent results as you lose a bit of time while the LC brings the bike under control if you drop the clutch.

Cosmik de Bris · Jul 28, 2016

Chaotic said:
They didn't show his clutch hand. But from what it looked like in the video, he didn't just "drop" the clutch. You still have to control/modulate the clutch.

If you can't see his clutch hand how do you know what he did? You are best not to drop the clutch but you don't have to do any moderating.

Chaotic said:
And they are running with Motel or Marelli systems that cost a lot more than our whole bikes cost.

Yes, but once again we don't know what the control strategy is for motogp, they all use a standard ECU.

Chaotic said:
If what you said was true, and LC was an auto-holeshot button, then every single rider would launch the exact same way, at the same speed, with the same velocity, and the only variable would be the HP/torque differences of the bikes. In other words, if it worked like you said it did, then when everyone arrived at the braking zone for T1, everyone would be spaced out exactly like they are on the starting grid, just further down the track. Anybody that has ever seen a race at any level knows damn well that isn't the case.

Yes, difference in bike performance, weather conditions, track conditions, and control systems aren't perfect. The rest of what you say seems to have drifted back to some sort of mythical track scenario and is complete nonsense.

Cosmik de Bris · Jul 28, 2016

ChrisE said:
Yes I hold a race license, CMRA #874, and agree with all that you are saying, just wanted to point out that the V4 Aprilia's have Launch Control built in, that's all.

Three different levels for various level of control. The Launch Control overrides Wheelie and Traction control until 3rd gear is selected or the speed exceeds 90mph, it then reverts back to the Wheelie and Traction Control settings.

The manual states to just release the clutch as normal.

Lot's of videos out there, just can't find one showing the clutch use.

From my understanding, the modulation of the engine is ECU controlled, not by the riders right wrist and no fine clutch control is necessary, as normally required from a race type start.

Taken from the Owners manual

Yes exactly, it isn't hard to grasp is it?

TurboLag · Jul 28, 2016

Watch his clutch handle from about 4:10 on that last vid, there you can see clearly that he doesn't just drop the clutch. He's feathering it out. And at about the 5 min mark, he's releasing too fast and the nose comes up. Same at about 5:40, feathering the clutch. Seems pretty consistent with what Chaotic is saying...

Chaotic · Jul 29, 2016

Cosmik de Bris said:
Look man you are just plain wrong, you have no idea how LC works and I seriously doubt you have ever tried it.

......... At this point you can STFU. You know nothing about me and I know exactly what I am talking about.

My reason for bringing up WSBK and MotoGP was to illustrate that any OEM system, even Aprilia, is very primitive compared to those systems, and even those MotoGP/WSBK systems aren't "auto-holeshot" devices. We see those guys .... up launches all the time.

There have been many people/racers commenting on this thread, and you are the only one who sees LC as an automatic easy button for holeshots. You are wrong. You don't even have to take our words for it, you can watch any race in the world and see that you are wrong. If you cant see you are wrong, then we can't help you.

Was wandering if anyone had any advice for running the 1299 Panigale S down the Strip

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