Was wandering if anyone had any advice for running the 1299 Panigale S down the Strip

TurboLag said:

Watch his clutch handle from about 4:10 on that last vid, there you can see clearly that he doesn't just drop the clutch. He's feathering it out. And at about the 5 min mark, he's releasing too fast and the nose comes up. Same at about 5:40, feathering the clutch. Seems pretty consistent with what Chaotic is saying...

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Exactly.

Chaotic said:

......... At this point you can STFU. You know nothing about me and I know exactly what I am talking about.

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I wondered when the abuse would start, a sure sign of a losing argument. No, I don't know anything about you except what you write. You said that LC only limits RPM it doesn't. I said it controls torque you said it doesn't, the Aprilia guy says it does. I can only surmise fro what you say that you haven't tried it.

Chaotic said:

My reason for bringing up WSBK and MotoGP was to illustrate that any OEM system, even Aprilia, is very primitive compared to those systems, and even those MotoGP/WSBK systems aren't "auto-holeshot" devices. We see those guys .... up launches all the time.

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That OEM systems are inferior is a guess not a fact. What is the LC strategy of MotoGP or WSBK? I haven't seen anything published on how it works, if you have perhaps you could post it?

Chaotic said:

There have been many people/racers commenting on this thread, and you are the only one who sees LC as an automatic easy button for holeshots. You are wrong. You don't even have to take our words for it, you can watch any race in the world and see that you are wrong. If you cant see you are wrong, then we can't help you.

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This isn't even an argument it is plain rambling. I'm not the only one and there aren't many people commenting, and I don't see how watching "any race in the world" helps, many don't even use TC.

You make statements which are wrong and then you change your stance every 5 mins to try to back out. You bring in irrelevant stuff about MotoGP to disguise what is being discussed.

TC on the Aprilia RSV4 and T4 controls torque not just limit RPM as you first stated, you said it didn't.

You said you had to modulate the clutch and throttle just like on any other bike, you don't, you hold the throttle wide open and release the clutch normally, no modulating of either required. You can drop the clutch but I don't think it is advisable, I have on numerous occasions but the response is unpredictable.

The use of the term one-shot is problematic as we probably won't agree on what this means, and you chop and change so much it is hard to keep track of.

You then changed your mind and said "from a riders perspective" you were correct. That is rubbish, there are many riders and some of them might agree with you but not many.

All the rest of the dribble you came up with was to justify this position you had taken which was completely wrong. You claim you have used the system but it is completely obvious to anyone who has that either you haven't or you don't know how to. There is nothing wrong with that but you have backed yourself into a corner and now you're just making stuff up to justify yourself.

Just admit you don't know what's going on and you never did.

Cheers

I'm sure the GP bikes use fork extension sensors in there electronics package for Launch Control . I am not too sure if the Aprilia system only works from wheel sensors and lean angle sensors . From what I have read the Aprilia uses the Bosch system as well .

I'm pretty sure that when LC is at all legal in MotoGP, it's as advanced as it gets... And even they mess up clutch modulation from time to time... Dropping the clutch at 9k rpm would lead to having the back wheel rotating at 50 mph in the blink of an eye, just because of the engine speed and gear ratio... "Reducing torque" wouldn't do anything for that, only thing you can do there if you got full engagement of the clutch is reduce the rpms, and how on earth would that make an efficient launch?

Cosmik de Bris said:

I wondered when the abuse would start, a sure sign of a losing argument. No, I don't know anything about you except what you write. You said that LC only limits RPM it doesn't. I said it controls torque you said it doesn't, the Aprilia guy says it does. I can only surmise fro what you say that you haven't tried it.



That OEM systems are inferior is a guess not a fact. What is the LC strategy of MotoGP or WSBK? I haven't seen anything published on how it works, if you have perhaps you could post it?



This isn't even an argument it is plain rambling. I'm not the only one and there aren't many people commenting, and I don't see how watching "any race in the world" helps, many don't even use TC.

You make statements which are wrong and then you change your stance every 5 mins to try to back out. You bring in irrelevant stuff about MotoGP to disguise what is being discussed.

TC on the Aprilia RSV4 and T4 controls torque not just limit RPM as you first stated, you said it didn't.

You said you had to modulate the clutch and throttle just like on any other bike, you don't, you hold the throttle wide open and release the clutch normally, no modulating of either required. You can drop the clutch but I don't think it is advisable, I have on numerous occasions but the response is unpredictable.

The use of the term one-shot is problematic as we probably won't agree on what this means, and you chop and change so much it is hard to keep track of.

You then changed your mind and said "from a riders perspective" you were correct. That is rubbish, there are many riders and some of them might agree with you but not many.

All the rest of the dribble you came up with was to justify this position you had taken which was completely wrong. You claim you have used the system but it is completely obvious to anyone who has that either you haven't or you don't know how to. There is nothing wrong with that but you have backed yourself into a corner and now you're just making stuff up to justify yourself.

Just admit you don't know what's going on and you never did.

Cheers

Click to expand...

No. Now you are the one who is just rambling .....

First off, I have used LC many times...on multiple bikes. I even have aftermarket LC installed on my 1299S race bike via the Rapidbike YouTune module. Yes - I have gotten good launches with it, I have also gotten some ...... ones. At the end of the day, it always comes down to the rider.

Secondly, I never said you had to modulate the throttle. I specifically said you can leave the throttle wide open. I said you have to modulate the CLUTCH.

My stance has never changed. My whole point through this whole damn thing was that it is still up to the rider to get a good launch. LC is NOT an "auto-holeshot" button. It never has been, it never will be. My comments on Pro racing were made to illustrate that fact. Even at the highest levels of racing, guys get poor launches...because it ALWAYS comes down to the rider.

I have the WSBK pass and was watching a race from a couple of years ago and the announcers went in depth talking about it. They discussed the LC on the Aprilia (and also the BMW because of the launches the side-by-side riders got in that particular race) and they discussed how one of the riders spent a lot of time in the offseason working on his starts because he felt like in the previous season he "dug himself a hole" too many times off the launch. He mentioned how the bikes have LC that makes it easier since they can stay at WOT, but that it still comes down to the clutch modulation of the rider (and he mentioned something about how one of the racers had a lot of dirt bike racing experience and how that carried over and was one of the reasons for his success launching sportbikes).

Apparently you are the only one who can't grasp that concept. But rather than wasting time here, I suggest you offer your services to racing teams worldwide. Apparently you are the only one who has figured out that LC is an auto-holeshot device. So many riders on every level, on Aprilias and other bikes, get ...... launches. So your vast knowledge would be very beneficial to racers worldwide, even at the WSBK/MotoGP levels.

wilkson said:

I'm sure the GP bikes use fork extension sensors in there electronics package for Launch Control . I am not too sure if the Aprilia system only works from wheel sensors and lean angle sensors . From what I have read the Aprilia uses the Bosch system as well .

Click to expand...

It uses the Bosch IMU (Inertial Management Unit?) I think but the Magneti Marelli ECU.

TurboLag said:

I'm pretty sure that when LC is at all legal in MotoGP, it's as advanced as it gets... And even they mess up clutch modulation from time to time... Dropping the clutch at 9k rpm would lead to having the back wheel rotating at 50 mph in the blink of an eye, just because of the engine speed and gear ratio... "Reducing torque" wouldn't do anything for that, only thing you can do there if you got full engagement of the clutch is reduce the rpms, and how on earth would that make an efficient launch?

Click to expand...

Are you saying that LC is not legal in MotoGP yet but when it is it will be highly advanced? I thought others were saying it'a already used and is far superior to everything else.

Chaotic said:

No. Now you are the one who is just rambling .....

First off, I have used LC many times...on multiple bikes. I even have aftermarket LC installed on my 1299S race bike via the Rapidbike YouTune module. Yes - I have gotten good launches with it, I have also gotten some ...... ones. At the end of the day, it always comes down to the rider.

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What bikes? Let's compare LC systems. How does the Rapid bike LC work? You may have used LC a thousand times but it seems incorrectly in the case of the Aprilia. I suggest you don't know how any of these systems work. My auntie plays the violin very well but she doesn't know how sound propagates through the atmosphere.

This discussion was about you saying all other systems use RPM limiting for LC and not torque control. All this other stuff you are saying is to obscure what you originally claimed which was wrong.

Chaotic said:

Secondly, I never said you had to modulate the throttle. I specifically said you can leave the throttle wide open. I said you have to modulate the CLUTCH.

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Yes eventually you changed your mind as you have done numerous times. You don't have to modulate the clutch on the Aprilia, you can but you don't have to. Do you know what modulate means in this context?

Chaotic said:

My stance has never changed. My whole point through this whole damn thing was that it is still up to the rider to get a good launch. LC is NOT an "auto-holeshot" button. It never has been, it never will be. My comments on Pro racing were made to illustrate that fact. Even at the highest levels of racing, guys get poor launches...because it ALWAYS comes down to the rider.

Click to expand...

Chaotic said:

I have the WSBK pass and was watching a race from a couple of years ago and the announcers went in depth talking about it. They discussed the LC on the Aprilia (and also the BMW because of the launches the side-by-side riders got in that particular race) and they discussed how one of the riders spent a lot of time in the offseason working on his starts because he felt like in the previous season he "dug himself a hole" too many times off the launch. He mentioned how the bikes have LC that makes it easier since they can stay at WOT, but that it still comes down to the clutch modulation of the rider (and he mentioned something about how one of the racers had a lot of dirt bike racing experience and how that carried over and was one of the reasons for his success launching sportbikes).

Click to expand...

So now we've steered the discussion to Superbikes and dirt bikes. How about go karts and synchronised swimming?

Hearsay and knowing how you operate you are probably mis-quoting or more likely mis-understanding already doubtful commentators. It's very convenient that they just happen to agree with your now modified standpoint.

Chaotic said:

Apparently you are the only one who can't grasp that concept. But rather than wasting time here, I suggest you offer your services to racing teams worldwide. Apparently you are the only one who has figured out that LC is an auto-holeshot device. So many riders on every level, on Aprilias and other bikes, get ...... launches. So your vast knowledge would be very beneficial to racers worldwide, even at the WSBK/MotoGP levels.

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What concept is it that I can't grasp? Your writing is so confused that I'm not sure what it is you're going on about from one minute to the next. I'm not wasting my time here, in fact I'm quite enjoying it. Ninety percent of what you write is either mis-informed or nonsense so I suggest it is you who is wasting time.

I said before that we are unlike to agree on what a one-hole shot system is so probably best to avoid the term.

Look I never said you can't get ...... launches, I've had a couple: one was where a car had dumped oil on the start line and it hadn't been dealt with adequately, the subsequent loss of power when the ECU tried to control the wheel spin killed the launch.

Actually, funny you should mention offering services to race teams, we have a team in the SAE race series, this year it is electric cars so quite a departure from previous years. Our car is even painted pink and blue in honour of John Britten whose name adorns one of the buildings here. Our part in the project is the ECU and torque control of the four electric motors.

So all this aside going back to your original post it seems you have changed your stance quite a bit and you seem to be mainly agreeing with my position. It's nice to see someone turn around and actually learn something. Perhaps next time you won't assert a wrong position so arrogantly and save yourself the embarrassment.

Cheers

Cosmik de Bris said:

blah, blah, blah...

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One more time, my stance has NEVER changed. I don't know why you keep saying that ......... My stance, from the very beginning, is that you do NOT have to modulate the throttle...you hold the throttle wide open and the LC limits the RPMs, thus allowing you to concentrate on the lights/flag.

From there, you still have to find the engagement point, get a good reaction time, and modulate the CLUTCH, then shift into 2nd. That holds true on every single bike worldwide, with or without LC. Hence the quality of the launch ALWAYS comes down to the rider. Again, that holds true in ever level of racing, regardless of how sophisticated the LC system is. I don't understand how you cant grasp that. I have been saying the same .... throughout this entire thread, and others have agreed.

You keep dodging my point regarding how even WSBK and MotoGP riders get poor launches, even with the advanced LC on their bikes. You dismiss it and talk about violins and .... because you don't want to admit that what I am saying is true. Launching the bike always comes down to the rider, with or without LC. Just this morning I watched a race where 2 riders, both on Aprilia's, had drastically different launches. One of them went from the 2nd row into the top 3 off the launch, the other one went from the first row down to 10th before entering T1. 2 riders, both on Aprilia's, both with LC, 2 drastically different results off the launch. Know why? Because one of them didn't modulate the clutch good enough, popped the front wheel up several times, and got a ...... launch.

YOU were the one that said LC is indeed an "auto-holeshot" device. Which is flat wrong.

Anyway, you are no longer entertaining. So let me just say this and end it.

You are the man. Your knowledge and ability with LC and launching is phenomenal, apparently better than anyone else, on any level. We will stand by and wait for you to post videos of you consistently dumping the clutch and beating the entire field into T1.

Until such videos are posted, have a good day.

Chaotic said:

One more time, my stance has NEVER changed. I don't know why you keep saying that ......... My stance, from the very beginning, is that you do NOT have to modulate the throttle...you hold the throttle wide open and the LC limits the RPMs, thus allowing you to concentrate on the lights/flag.

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No, this is your stance from about half way through the discussion. Did you or did you not say in one of you first posts:

"The ONLY thing Launch Control does (on bikes that have it, which our Panigale does not) is limit the RPMs."

To which I pointed out that it is the torque which is controlled.

You then said: "No. it does not "control" the torque. It limits the RPM to the range where the most torque is made."

This bit makes no sense because if it were to output maximum torque you would be defeating the whole purpose of LC, but this is where the discussion started. You were completely wrong. From there on you just embarrassed yourself trying to dig your way out of a hole you created by being misinformed.

Chaotic said:

From there, you still have to find the engagement point, get a good reaction time, and modulate the CLUTCH, then shift into 2nd. That holds true on every single bike worldwide, with or without LC. Hence the quality of the launch ALWAYS comes down to the rider. Again, that holds true in ever level of racing, regardless of how sophisticated the LC system is. I don't understand how you cant grasp that. I have been saying the same .... throughout this entire thread, and others have agreed.

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Yes, but that is all pretty obvious and not what we were discussing, these were all attempts by you to skew the discussion away from you initial wrong assumption.

Chaotic said:

You keep dodging my point regarding how even WSBK and MotoGP riders get poor launches, even with the advanced LC on their bikes. You dismiss it and talk about violins and .... because you don't want to admit that what I am saying is true. Launching the bike always comes down to the rider, with or without LC. Just this morning I watched a race where 2 riders, both on Aprilia's, had drastically different launches. One of them went from the 2nd row into the top 3 off the launch, the other one went from the first row down to 10th before entering T1. 2 riders, both on Aprilia's, both with LC, 2 drastically different results off the launch. Know why? Because one of them didn't modulate the clutch good enough, popped the front wheel up several times, and got a ...... launch.

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Again you are avoiding the original point but since you have brought up WSBK and MotoGP I decided to see if I could find out a little bit about the ECUs in these competitions. I asked you if you knew what the control strategies were but you didn't know and didn't respond. Here are a couple of interesting articles on the MotoGP unified software, they have some long words in them but you probably have a dictionary.

A couple of very interesting points in these articles. One is that manufacturers are allowed to use any sensors they like and this leads to variations in software performance. The other is this quote which is more relevant to our discussion:

"Things are a little different for Aprilia. The Noale factory already has world-class electronics, developed in part in World Superbikes. The switch to the unified software was a step back for Aprilia, also because their MotoGP effort is being run with such limited resources."

So the MotoGP software is not as good as their own stuff which was developed "in part" from the Superbike stuff. So both your claims about MotoGP and WSBK launches are completely without foundation.

Also interesting is the bit about torque control.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2015/09/08/everything_you_wanted_to_know_about_moto.html

2016 MotoGP Mid-Season Review: Spec Software

Chaotic said:

YOU were the one that said LC is indeed an "auto-holeshot" device. Which is flat wrong.

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You introduced the term and I did say that it was, but I think later I did point out that we had not really defined the term and so it was probably not the best idea to use it. It is still more than not however.

Chaotic said:

Anyway, you are no longer entertaining. So let me just say this and end it.

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Oh I don't know, I've enjoyed it and perhaps some others have gleaned something from our discussion.

Chaotic said:

You are the man. Your knowledge and ability with LC and launching is phenomenal, apparently better than anyone else, on any level. We will stand by and wait for you to post videos of you consistently dumping the clutch and beating the entire field into T1.

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Well it's pretty easy if you know how to work the electronics (which is a couple of buttons), how hard can it be? I suggest you try to learn but old dog, new tricks?

I was going to suggest a video and I will post something since I now have a camera. I won't get to the strip until October but I may be able to do something on a back road somewhere.

Chaotic said:

Until such videos are posted, have a good day.

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Yes, thanks. It's a pity, you haven't contributed one ounce of knowledge to this whole series of posts. Your original wrong statements were followed by you just trying to wriggle out of your own ignorance by skewing the discussion, changing you mind, and introducing yet more fallacious "facts". Really, if you could have admitted you had made a mistake right at the beginning you could have avoided all this humiliation. I asked you for information about the Rapidbike, MotoGP and WSBK LC strategies and you gave no information. I realise you don't know but I did give you the opportunity to at least try to find out.

At least you've learnt something and I do suggest you read those articles, I found them quite interesting.

Cheers

Cosmik de Bris said:

Are you saying that LC is not legal in MotoGP yet but when it is it will be highly advanced? I thought others were saying it'a already used and is far superior to everything else.

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What? Where did I say it's not legal? Did you read something I didn't write? I said since it IS legal it would be stupid not to make it as good as it gets
These guys spend millions on going as fast as they can, why make a half assed solution for race starts?

Zenkiton said:

Hey everyone,

I bought my 2015 1299 Panigale S a few months back and I have been debating on taking it to the local strip just to see what it would run in the 1/4 mile.

Is there any advice anyone can offer about running it down the strip for the first time? Any settings that would help out or what not.

My main concern is launching. I have never really launched this bike and not sure how to go about doing it. I know the wheelie control will keep it from flipping but its still stuck in my head that there is a slight chance that I could flip it lol.

I was looking around using the search feature but all the drag strips threads i could find where from a few years ago.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-- Zenkiton

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Hi Zenkiton,

Rather interesting threat with all kind of advices and posts. Apparently a lot of drivers are into this matter.. but I still did not hear anybody (who does the ¼ mile races) about their clocked times? What does the Pani on the ¼ mile? Anybody?

TurboLag said:

What? Where did I say it's not legal? Did you read something I didn't write? I said since it IS legal it would be stupid not to make it as good as it gets
These guys spend millions on going as fast as they can, why make a half assed solution for race starts?

Click to expand...

Ok don't get all twisted up it was a question, see that squiggle at the end of the sentence?

No, you said: "I'm pretty sure that when LC is at all legal in MotoGP, it's as advanced as it gets..."

The "when" implies that it is not legal yet. So I didn't read something you didn't write you didn't quote yourself correctly. I know that there are differences in the way we use English hence the question.

If you read the two links I posted above in the reply to Chaotic you will see that they don't make it "as good as it gets" because the regulations don't allow them too. The article says:

"Things are a little different for Aprilia. The Noale factory already has world-class electronics, developed in part in World Superbikes. The switch to the unified software was a step back for Aprilia, also because their MotoGP effort is being run with such limited resources."

See, Aprilias software is better than they use in MotoGP, simple eh?

Caribbean Rider said:

Hi Zenkiton,

Rather interesting threat with all kind of advices and posts. Apparently a lot of drivers are into this matter.. but I still did not hear anybody (who does the ¼ mile races) about their clocked times? What does the Pani on the ¼ mile? Anybody?

Click to expand...

I haven't tried mine yet but I will when the strip opens in October. If you do a search you will see times in the low 10s.

allright then. Dump the clutch, make sure someone is filming it

Cosmik de Bris said:

I haven't tried mine yet but I will when the strip opens in October. If you do a search you will see times in the low 10s.

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Right now our best time is 10:18 but we're definitely going for somewhere under 10.

The 1000RR's and Hayabusa's doing between 9:30 - 9:80, most of them with extended rear, racing fuel etc etc..

One guy is building an extended single arm for his H2; going to be interesting.

TurboLag said:

allright then. Dump the clutch, make sure someone is filming it

Click to expand...

I notice you didn't actually address your last post where you failed to quote yourself correctly and then accused me of failing to read what you wrote. I guess you are a buddy of Chaotic since you defend him but don't add any content to the discussion.

So, what about your claims about LC in MotoGP? It must be better because they spend millions on it. Does that summarise your position?

Caribbean Rider said:

Right now our best time is 10:18 but we're definitely going for somewhere under 10.

The 1000RR's and Hayabusa's doing between 9:30 - 9:80, most of them with extended rear, racing fuel etc etc..

One guy is building an extended single arm for his H2; going to be interesting.

Click to expand...

That's a pretty good time, what have you done to your bike?

Cosmik de Bris said:

That's a pretty good time, what have you done to your bike?

Click to expand...

Nothing really surprising.. Full Akra and K&N racing air filter. Ordered a Pro Shift power shifter kit and I'am in cue for a RapidBike Racing module.

The whole point is the launch.. since the bike is really not made for ¼ mile this is the hardest part to control.

Interesting is that in this race we ended in timing on the 9th place (10:18) while we had the second fasted speed; 147.44 mile. That means if we get the launch fixed -no wheelies till 4th gear- we should get much better times. If you're able to keep it down and get past 3rd gear, this beast sets your hair on fire.

Down here all the Hayabusa and BMW guys learned quickly (only Panigale on the island) not to challenge a Ducati on a rolling start.. it will make a foul out of you.

Mind you, al the other bikes have extended rear ends, racing fuel, special tires and air shifters. I'am driving pretty much factory.

A while ago we raced with my other bike as well, a KTM 1290 Superduke. Everybody made fun, a naked bike at the strip; driver sitting straight up. What is he going to do against all these S1000RR and Haya's?

After two runs everybody was standing on their seats shouting Go KTM Go KTM! Best time that day was 10:34. This bike is, due of upright position, much easier to handle during the launch and has the torque of a Spaceshuttle. If it wheelies until 4th you just sit comfortable straight up having fun.

They where not familiar with the enormous torque of a V2 in the low rev's down here at Hayabusa Island. Now they are..

Caribbean Rider said:

Hi Zenkiton,

Rather interesting threat with all kind of advices and posts. Apparently a lot of drivers are into this matter.. but I still did not hear anybody (who does the ¼ mile races) about their clocked times? What does the Pani on the ¼ mile? Anybody?

Click to expand...

Haven't taken the Panigale to the track yet since launches are still my trouble spot and not to sure if I'm ready to try launching with the electronics off since it goes sky high as soon as you hit 2nd. Rolling starts don't bother me but I need to put some time and focus on practicing launches lol.

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