New motor / crate engine

[20 797]

Hey there everyone. I hope you all have been enjoying the roads and for those waiting for the snow to disappear in northern climates, we are almost there.
Does anyone know of how to purchase new Ducati engines?
I am looking to purchase a V4R motor or (second choice) a V4 motor.
I have heard of folks buying new motors in the past but haven't seen anything recently.
Can you purchase direct from Ducati in Italy? Can you go through local dealership? Any help appreciated.

Thank you & Ride Safe. 2 down ✌

 

[Deleted member 14059]

I've never even heard of someone buying a crate Ducati engine. Not saying it can't happen, but I think your best bet is to contact your dealer or maybe even HSBK/Ducati New York and ask.

 

[20 797]

Yeah neither have I tbh. Thought it was worth a shot here. I'm gonna shoot them an email anyhow and I'll post the reply here to help anyone else out . Thanks for the response

 

[craig bush]

In to hear what you find out.

You might find it’s cheaper to buy a totaled low mileage bike from copart.

 

[Deleted member 14059]

Yeah neither have I tbh. Thought it was worth a shot here. I'm gonna shoot them an email anyhow and I'll post the reply here to help anyone else out . Thanks for the response

Please post your results. I'd stick with the bigger dealerships. Some low volume ones might not know or be willing to ask.

Here's a 2022 with 483 miles which starts according to the listing. I don't know what something like this is likely to go for.

https://www.crashedtoys.com/lot/57109312/2022-ducati-panigale-v4s-oh-cleveland-west

 

[SuperDomestique]

Best bet would be to ring up Mark at DucShop

 

[baggerman]

You be way better off finding a used one and having it blueprinted. And I agree Mark Sutton is a good guy for this kind of stuff and a talented tuner.

 

[craig bush]

You be way better off finding a used one and having it blueprinted. And I agree Mark Sutton is a good guy for this kind of stuff and a talented tuner.

Have you talked to Mark about this?

How far out is he booking for pv4 motor blueprinting?

 

[baggerman]

I've not asked anybody about blueprinting as I do my own work. But I've talked to him a bit in the past and he's a really knowledgeable guy. My friend's 1198 is running one of his fuel maps.

 

[craig bush]

I've not asked anybody about blueprinting as I do my own work. But I've talked to him a bit in the past and he's a really knowledgeable guy. My friend's 1198 is running one of his fuel maps.

Do you routinely recommend people for specific work without even talking to them first to get their thoughts on the work in question? Seems a little presumptuous.

I talked to him after we lost our 5kmi v4 motor. Strikes me as a very knowledgeable guy. He made a few observations including:

- he had seen only a few v4 failures and couldn’t identify recurrent issues or common points of failure

- he expects around 4-5kmi from a bluprinted track motor, so there might be no benefit to routinely blueprinting the pv4 motor if the factory built motors are already lasting that long (or even longer); as an aside, he noted that we don’t really know the v4 rebuild schedule under track conditions aside from factory recommendations for racing - the motor has only been in service for 6 years. How many track miles is the average pv4 subject to annually? The failure reports might become more common as more motors accumulate 4-5k track miles.

- he was approximately a year out on scheduling non-shop work (he is no longer a standalone shop - Ducshop is now part of another shop)


How many pv4’s have you blueprinted? If none, why not - as an experienced engine builder, what do you identify as prohibitive about the job?

 

[baggerman]

Do you routinely recommend people for specific work without even talking to them first to get their thoughts on the work in question? Seems a little presumptuous.

I talked to him after we lost our 5kmi v4 motor. Strikes me as a very knowledgeable guy. He made a few observations including:

- he had seen only a few v4 failures and couldn’t identify recurrent issues or common points of failure

- he expects around 4-5kmi from a bluprinted track motor, so there might be no benefit to routinely blueprinting the pv4 motor if the factory built motors are already lasting that long (or even longer); as an aside, he noted that we don’t really know the v4 rebuild schedule under track conditions aside from factory recommendations for racing - the motor has only been in service for 6 years. How many track miles is the average pv4 subject to annually? The failure reports might become more common as more motors accumulate 4-5k track miles.

- he was approximately a year out on scheduling non-shop work (he is no longer a standalone shop - Ducshop is now part of another shop)


How many pv4’s have you blueprinted? If none, why not - as an experienced engine builder, what do you identify as prohibitive about the job?

When one talks to another who shares a lot of experience, so not presumptive I just know he'd be good at it. I'm old I don't need the money or the aggravation. Whenever you blueprint a motor for the first time you have to measure every part. Resize what's needed (like rod bearing bores). Magnaflux the spinning bits. This alone takes a long time. Patient assembly takes a long time too. I do have some specific thots about how to proceed and the first thing I'd do is plug the underskirt squirters. Then gun drill the rods or use R gun drilled rods. Optimize the clearances which with Ducati usually means minimum spec but I haven't measured. Minimize the quench. Appropriately time the cams. Blueprint the oil pump. Polish the rod flanks if needed and if this needed to be done reshotpeen. Better rod bolts. Hand balance the pistons and rods. Check the crank balance. Chamfer the downstream ends of the rod oil feeds. Optimize the various shaft end floats particularly the crank. I think a properly prepared bottom end would run a lot longer than 5K including the pistons. Like Mark said not enough experience with these to know. If I were racing one of these I'd be checking the valvetrain regularly and if the cams are ground precisely enough set the closers on 0.001 inch. Run the R titanium collets. I expect these to be guide killers because of the steep flanks on the cams particularly the R's. So I would expect to maybe be replacing the guides at 5k racing miles and maybe the valves and on the R's less. But again not enough data. I'd be paying attention to the heads anyway. My point is the first built is always way more expensive than a refresh. So expect it to be expensive. I see no inherent defects in the design (I like the architecture) other than the squirters. Should be reliable. Did you guys ever figure out the cause of your bearing failure?

 

[Seth Vo]

@baggerman nice write and thoughts. Curious on why plug oil squirter?

 

[SuperDomestique]

@baggerman nice write and thoughts. Curious on why plug oil squirter?

Hehe

 

[SuperDomestique]

DucShop or WOW or whatever they call it. Just see if someone in-the-know knows how to source a motor from Bologna

 

[MdDuc]

You can buy a v4 engine from Ducati for around $15,000+the cost to get it here from Italy. Why would you do that though? I have a deal for you, I’ll go buy a brand new 2024 and sell you the never ran engine out of it for $12K and I’ll keep the rest of the bike.

 

[Deleted member 14059]

You can buy a v4 engine from Ducati for around $15,000+the cost to get it here from Italy.

Please better attribute this statement. Is there a particular part number, person or entity to contact etc.?

 

[baggerman]

@baggerman nice write and thoughts. Curious on why plug oil squirter?

The squirters are used to cool the back of the piston crown to cool it to lower NOX emissions. It does help to lubricate the pins which is why gun drilling the rod to oil the pin is a good idea if you remove them. The squirters actually kill a little hp because the chamber is cooler. The squirters bleed off oil pressure and if one of the tubes falls off a lot of oil pressure or lodges itself between the crank counterweight and the piston at BDC and grenades the motor. What I see in these is primarily lubrication failures so deleting the squirters gives you a little more volume where its better used. What I would do is buy a used low mileage one, do a leak down to make sure the ring seal is good. Shim the heads if the valve job is ok. Turn it over and split the cases, pull the crank and rods, leaving the pistons in the bores if all was ok, optimize bearing clearances, remove the squirters, gun drill the rods, chamfer the downstream end of the rod feeds, change the rod bolts (aftermarket), blueprint the oil pump and put it back together and flog it. I put magnets near the head oil returns on my own bike to catch any valvetrain debris as the heads are being pumped a lot of oil and the head scavenge stage has a mesh screen at the oil pump so I want to insure that nothing constricts the oil volume being scavenged out of the heads.

 

[baggerman]

Hehe

You know this made me crazy. I have mechanical failure crashaphobia. Vinales looks like he shredded a gearbox.

 

[Mcv4]

Oil squirters also lube the thrust side of the bore which aids piston and cylinder life. Do you have logs of oil pressure tapering off at high RPM? Also do you know of someone who have gun barrel drilled OEM Ducati V4 rods? There does not appear to be much material thickness through the centre of the I-beam rod.

 

[baggerman]

There maybe some more oil ending up on the walls but they're aimed at the back of the piston top. The R's now have gun drilled rods. And gun drilling them would be tough. The small ends because they park at TDC never achieve hydrodynamic lubrication but pumping oil into the loaded side of the pin has to help at 15,000 RPM. But i suspect this change was probably because the WSBK mechanics were tossing the squirters in the trash. I'm simply looking at apparent lubrication failures leading to rod failures. So if the oiling can be improved why not. Running bearing clearance at the loose end of the spec wastes pump volume. And every Ducati oil pump I've ever measured has had too much end float. Tightening the bearing clearances towards the minimum end of the spec helps. I like Italian engineering therefore many Ducati's. That being said Italian assembly generally blows. I'm always happier when it's my work. It's the mechanical failure induced crashaphobia thing.