1299 Ohlins Semi-Active suspension vs BMW's?

I'm sure both are great systems regardless of which is more technologically advanced. In one of the reviews the tester preferred the 'event based' Ohlins over the 'reactive' Sachs on track purely because it was more predictable and he felt more confident. The impression I get from is that the 'event based' semi active suspension on the 1299S will be best on track, the Sachs/BMW combo might edge it on the road.

SPJ said:

I'm sure both are great systems regardless of which is more technologically advanced. In one of the reviews the tester preferred the 'event based' Ohlins over the 'reactive' Sachs on track purely because it was more predictable and he felt more confident. The impression I get from is that the 'event based' semi active suspension on the 1299S will be best on track, the Sachs/BMW combo might edge it on the road.

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That makes perfect sense. A system that makes minimal changes WOULD be more predictable. Great info!

I've been holding out when the 1199 came out knowing from previous purchase experiences that a new product always get refinements/improvements.

Maybe I'll get a 1299S this year..may be next! It's getting much harder to wait now.

Forget waiting. While you waiting, we are riding. Just get the 1299s and in a couple of year buy another or upgrade via trade in.

Ljuice26 said:

Forget waiting. While you waiting, we are riding. Just get the 1299s and in a couple of year buy another or upgrade via trade in.

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I'm not one to sell my bikes. I have a few other bikes that are helping me get by right now.

b9009b said:

BMW's is basically the same as what's on the 1199s/r models. The 1299's suspension is technically more advanced than both. Just using lets gadgets to control it and make it happen.

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Just to be 100% clear for readers, all 1199S/R suspension did was make adjustments without the need for a spanner.

DES had the capability to store 3x settings and change between, even while riding.

Here endeth the lesson in stating the obvious

Ohlins divides the riding into different events instead of looking every millisecond at what the chassis is doing and making continuous adjustments. In developing an ideal damping curve for each event (braking, cornering, acceleration, and other events that the company refuses to discuss), they can provide a proper setup for nearly every riding scenario while also maintaining lap-after-lap consistency. Essentially, there’s a specific damping setting that Ohlins and Ducati have determined work well for braking instances, and that exact setting is applied to the suspension when the bike recognizes that you are braking. This is different in that it does not adjust the damping based on how hard you are braking for a given corner, and so when you go to brake for that same corner on lap 2, you will get the same setting and feel regardless of whether or not you brake harder or softer

Sport Rider Review

I have read all the reviews and understand you can pick from settings such as soft , hard , hardest then the suspension adjusts from there based on ridding events also you can adjust it yourself and turn the active part off. This may be a stupid question I have no expireance with electronic suspension but can you set the suspension up yourself and use your settings as a baseline for the active suspension to adjust from or do you have to pick one of the presets for the active part to work?

mach2mack said:

I have read all the reviews and understand you can pick from settings such as soft , hard , hardest then the suspension adjusts from there based on ridding events also you can adjust it yourself and turn the active part off. This may be a stupid question I have no expireance with electronic suspension but can you set the suspension up yourself and use your settings as a baseline for the active suspension to adjust from or do you have to pick one of the presets for the active part to work?

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After a long call with Ohlins earlier today. We can make adjustments to it in Active. Not sure hoe much but we can make some.

Good to know.

b9009b said:

Ohlins divides the riding into different events instead of looking every millisecond at what the chassis is doing and making continuous adjustments. In developing an ideal damping curve for each event (braking, cornering, acceleration, and other events that the company refuses to discuss), they can provide a proper setup for nearly every riding scenario while also maintaining lap-after-lap consistency. Essentially, there’s a specific damping setting that Ohlins and Ducati have determined work well for braking instances, and that exact setting is applied to the suspension when the bike recognizes that you are braking. This is different in that it does not adjust the damping based on how hard you are braking for a given corner, and so when you go to brake for that same corner on lap 2, you will get the same setting and feel regardless of whether or not you brake harder or softer

Sport Rider Review

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these bikes are tricky to set up and the stock setting don't work when getting the power down hence alot of people binned the electronic stuff and the new R model and SL have a conventional set up where they dial it in with clicks etc insteap on electronically.

i presume the settings you are referring to are the three riding modes and as mentioned earlier the ducati system is not an active system so I'm unsure about your statement.

reganc said:

these bikes are tricky to set up and the stock setting don't work when getting the power down hence alot of people binned the electronic stuff and the new R model and SL have a conventional set up where they dial it in with clicks etc insteap on electronically.

i presume the settings you are referring to are the three riding modes and as mentioned earlier the ducati system is not an active system so I'm unsure about your statement.

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Not my statement that was taken from the Sport Rider review. It's actually confusing to me how and where it works. Even after talking to Ohlins it does respond actively to situations. Just not sure how its decided.

b9009b said:

Not my statement that was taken from the Sport Rider review. It's actually confusing to me how and where it works. Even after talking to Ohlins it does respond actively to situations. Just not sure how its decided.

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Yes, I read the same article. Makes sense.

One area I think Ducati may improve is to link the info from the IMU to the traction control system. In the Sport Rider article, it stated that currently the traction control system is independent of the IMU, which I think is a short-coming.

Guys - a few things to remember about all these electronic suspension systems.

First off, they don't come from Ducati/BMW/NameYourFave. They are designed and developed by the suspension companies themselves, ala Ohlins/Tenneco/Sachs and pitched to the Ducati's/BMW's of the world for OEM application. If adopted, the bike manufacturers then work with the suppliers to integrate and tune the systems to their liking. All these systems were pioneered in cars first, and are following suit in MC application, just like ABS/TC/Etc. There's plenty of industry doco out there, but you should look to the suppliers and not the OEM users for the goods on it.

Secondly, there are several tiers of product out there.

Tier 1 would be settable preset damping modes as in the past 1199S. Pick your setting (hard/med/soft, or the like), and that's it. All you're doing going from mode to mode is changing damping clickers. Some Tier 1 systems (not those on sportbikes) also incorporate preload changes to suspension via hydraulic adjustment. Again, this is a motor turning the same knobs you might do by hand.

Tier two is that same sort of system, but with automated on-the-fly changes, which is what's on the 1299's being discussed here. They use ECU input data to decide whether to change to the preset mode for the current condition; event-based as it's called. So you can have it in a comfort mode with soft damping, then if large accel/decel/lean conditions are detected, the stepper motors can change the damping to suit, then return to base settings when back in cruise mode. Definitely better than nothing (or you having to change modes manually), but not fast enough responding to really make a massive change in ride from a Tier 1 setup.

Tier 3 is solenoid-based valving ala Sachs on the BMW, which can adjust/react far faster than the tier two system. Reaction time and range of adjustment are its main advantages. This kind of system is much more adept at handling variable road conditions than a Tier 2 one, as it can change damping in reaction to hitting say, a pavement crack or pothole, even if you are straight up and keeping a steady pace. A Tier 2 system wouldn't see an event there until it was too late to do anything about it.

Tier 4 takes you into the world of magnetorheological dampers, where the viscosity of the damping fluid can be changed virtually instantaneously via altering the electrical current running through it. This further improves on a solenoid system by reacting still faster and having more range. With this you can have a virtually rigid suspension in your sports car while running over railroad tracks without spilling your martini. If you have four wheels and can afford it, this is what you want right now. Not in motorbikes yet, but you can bet it will be coming at some point.

Tier 5 is full-active, where sensors detect what the wheels are "about to" hit, so the suspension can work proactively, rather than reactively as all suspensions before have worked. This it a bit like you running on an uneven surface and modifying your stride/steps to deal with the ground you see as you approach it. Holy Grail stuff here; losing springs for linear electric motors, etc. Very complex and spendy. It IS coming, but it'll be long way off for 2-wheelers.

You don't see ES on the R's or SL's because A) electronic suspension has been banned from racing for a good while now, and besides - B) tracks are so smooth compared to roads that you can just optimize for the day's few Km you're going to be lapping over and over and be done with it.

Thank you Steve B.

So if I am reading right

Tier 4 is what the McLaren P1 has on it.

So that means the R1M suspension is also Tier 3 same as BMW's.

It seems from your description of Tier 2 that its not much further advanced than what on the 1199S/R models. It doesn't even control rebound or compression. Hmmm. So I can't see a reason anymore to buy the 1299s and not just get the base model as my bike will be half track bike and half my transportation. The only reason I was chossing the 1299s was to have it react better on the street but that doesn't seem to be what its going to do.

So I think I'll get a base model in April and a R1M later on instead of a 1299s.

Thanks again for the breakdown.

I highly doubt you will be able to get a r1m later. There are only 500 coming to the US. The yamaha primeir delivery program ends on jan 31st after that any remaining bikes will be ordered by dealers not allocated a PDP bike. I have talked to yamaha USA and YART and it doesn't look like there is going to be a 2016 r1m. You may be able to find a used one after a while but I wouldn't count on them being readily available.

mach2mack said:

I highly doubt you will be able to get a r1m later. There are only 500 coming to the US. The yamaha primeir delivery program ends on jan 31st after that any remaining bikes will be ordered by dealers not allocated a PDP bike. I have talked to yamaha USA and YART and it doesn't look like there is going to be a 2016 r1m. You may be able to find a used one after a while but I wouldn't count on them being readily available.

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My dealer has one on deposit for me already. I dropped the deposit on it also to avoid that conflict.

I had a deposit on a PDP r1m too but damn real estate deal is taking for ever so had to pull out. Oh well 1299s looks like it will be just as good and is a lot prettier too.

The Mac P1 probably straddles a bit into Tier 5 as it has some proactive elements, but mainly for aero effect. For instance, it still can't "see" that it's about to hit a 4" tall bump with one wheel and lift that wheel alone proactively to minimize the impact, which is what a full-active setup can do.

But both Tier 1 and 2 (along with the rest) absolutely DO control comp/rebound damping, which is what twisting clickers do on a non-ES bike. Tier 1 just has some presets that you have to choose from manually, while Tier 2 changes between presets on the fly by itself. This what both the 1299S AND the R1M do, and it is simply an OEM application of Ohlins Mechatronic. Which is a good thing!

And as for going Base because of it, I think that's the wrong take on it. The real value of these adaptable electronic systems is that they eliminate a good bit of the compromise you have to make in setting up a bike. To get acceptable daily ride quality on what passes for roads these days you need softer damping, but then you lose the pitch control you need for heavy braking/acceleration. If you stiffen it up for hard riding, it beats you to death when the roads are rough and won't let the tires stay hooked up over coarse surfaces. And virtually ALL public roads are rougher than racetracks.

The earlier Tier 1 system didn't really interest me either, but the new one is a real improvement for road use. Could it be better/more advanced? Yes of course, and it will be soon enough. But then so could and will be the TC/ABS/Etc. Progress never sleeps...

mach2mack said:

I had a deposit on a PDP r1m too but damn real estate deal is taking for ever so had to pull out. Oh well 1299s looks like it will be just as good and is a lot prettier too.

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From the get go I have liked both the R1M and 1299S the same. The susp thing though tips it to r1m street bike and base 1299 track bike only instead of a 1299s for both.

Steve B said:

The Mac P1 probably straddles a bit into Tier 5 as it has some proactive elements, but mainly for aero effect. For instance, it still can't "see" that it's about to hit a 4" tall bump with one wheel and lift that wheel alone proactively to minimize the impact, which is what a full-active setup can do.

But both Tier 1 and 2 (along with the rest) absolutely DO control comp/rebound damping, which is what twisting clickers do on a non-ES bike. Tier one just has some presets that you have to choose from manually, while Tier 2 changes between presets on the fly by itself. This what both the 1299S AND the R1M do, and it is simply an OEM application of Ohlins Mechatronic. Which is a good thing!

And as for going Base because of it, I think that's the wrong take on it. The real value of these adaptable electronic systems is that they eliminate a good bit of the compromise you have to make in setting up a bike. To get acceptable daily ride quality on what passes for roads these days you need softer damping, but then you lose the pitch control you need for heavy braking/acceleration. If you stiffen it up for hard riding, it beats you to death when the roads are rough and won't let the tires stay hooked up over course surfaces. And virtually ALL public roads are rougher than racetracks.

The earlier Tier 1 system didn't really interest me either, but the new one is a real improvement for road use. Could it be better/more advanced? Yes of course, and it will be soon enough. But then so could and will be the TC/ABS/Etc. Progress never sleeps...

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Your killing me steve lol. Your 1st post made the 1299s susp seem horrible for the roads lol. ugh. So would the susp on the 1299s be ideal to use the bike for street riding and track days"???????????????????