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The "general" comment was in reference to the details. Both were Generals but quite different in scope and effect. Same with generalized verbiage on descriptions. Kind of like an "expert opinion". Who has qualified the expert. In this case you could argue that composite technology from say Lockheed may be different in scope than Yotran hobby Inc. I have no doubt that the composit tech that Ducati is using is top notch. This is not new for them. Wheels make sense for sure and BST obviously knows what they are doing there. The real difference in bikes is why? In aerospace we started using. Composites for the high strength to weight ratios in building thin airfoil sections with increasingly higher loading. Of course there are many applications today but I would be hard pressed to name any that were cosmetic and you would be hard pressed to find composite materials in a area that didn't warrant them. The bikes and cars "consumer" are different. To me there are applications that do not make much sense.
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Ok, on the same page.. however why not carbon fiber? Let's call it what it is, the hyper cars and all of the high end performance machines are using it, it become synonymous with performance. It this point the can save grams and weight using carbin fiber over magnesium, it's the evolution, for years magnesium was the standard, this is the natural progression. Also, as I have said before, with the Volkswagen/ audio group in control and the lamborghini joint venture with being and the carbon copy posted materials they have developed and advances they have made with carbon fiber, why wouldn't they do it?
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I disagree........ I want to be rich and important please........ that and I'll hand you an ... whoopin' on CoD
No I'm all for it for sure. Hell I use a lot of it and no doubt it has many advantages. When I was building a new airfoil for my BD-5 I literally has to use a carbon Kevlar spar. There was no way to get the spar thin enough and strong enough using and alloy spar and ribs or fiberglass so for sure there are situations which its probably not possible to use anything but. The issue is when the perception of "bling" for lack of a better term ..... all over things and you end up with a part that is grossly over priced compared to one that was used in a functional environment. The stuff is not expensive. It is easy to lay up and work with. It is easy to vacuum bag for the home builder and finished parts are easy to trim. You can use multi layered aramids and what not and now they have many colored options. Where I'm off is again beating the dead horse. I have made CF pieces for members on this board and never barged anyone for anything. The stuff just isn't expensive but you have all these bike and auto companies charging like it was a precious metal so in that case unless it's fairly warranted, I would just go with an alloy that is similar. Wheels are a good example. Notice how BST priced their wheels similarly to Marchesini and OZ? No way they could have charged 8k and said "yea but they are CF" BFD. The performance difference if any did not allow it. Now look at the first CF wheels for cars. They were ........ expensive but now prices are tumbling. BST has a car wheel now. The cost of materials didn't suddenly drop. The perception changed.
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yes, there is that which you brought up. However like anything a new technology at first is always more expensive but they have priced to be competitive, they had to. Carbon fiber for awhile has had the allure of the exotic rare material, and good for you making carbon for members. With structural pieces thought there is alit more that goes into it as you know. Yes Ducati is asking a lot for the bike and a you have said numerous times it may be outrageous, however you are buying into the prestige.... the allure. Can you build a better bike for you? Possibly, but it still won't be the 1299SL or in the car world, its not a LaFerrari Aperta. Its a crazy world, if you have the money you will buy it and enjoy it, others will lust after it and life goes on. I love my R, it does more than I can imagine doing, however I do lust after the 1299SL or the 1199SL because that who I am. But I will never be able to come close to riding it to its full potential. It is what it is, to those who can, I respect that and will lust after your bike. But..... I will still smile every time I fire up my R and love every second of riding it down my favorite roads, at the end of the dat lets all ride, do track days and enjoy the machines we love...
Good write up for sure. I'm sure I have a lot less in the riding skill set department than you and most of the guys here. I'm a toy junkie and just like doing my own thing so regardless of money, I build. I'm fortunate to have a shop at my house and I can do everything from CNC to environmental controlled TIG to composites. The stock 1199R is waaaaaaay more bike that I am a rider and If I had to buy and keep a bone stock bike no matter what was sitting in the bank account, that would be the bike. The ridiculous .... I do to the stuff I build is strictly because I like and appreciate high quality pieces and at the end of the day, its satisfying to go out and ride something that I made just for me and that I'm probably not going to go anywhere and see another just like it.
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I was speaking generally to the crowd and was not calling you out.
to answer your question you'd need an expert and that is not me.
if you're comparing the motorcycle swingarm to a McLaren A-arm then we should point out a few things
the McLaren is nearly 10x the weight of the ducati coming in at over 3100 lbs.
the horse power is 3x of that of the duc.
the contact patch of a McLaren and the angle of corner entry would by themselves multiply the lateral force on the vehicle by maybe hundreds to that of a motorcycle(possibly 1000x or more) . the key factor being contact patch . cars are superior to motorcycle when it comes to grip .
the a-arm is 3 centimeters ⌀ and the MC swingarm is 20 centimeters ⌀
all this means nothing and proves even less. My point was not to insult anyone just to give some perspective on what we are doing and to question the motives of the people bashing the SL
If for example, I thought the bike was not great I would probably keep it to myself out of respect. If I felt qualified to discredit the use of carbon fibre on a certain component I might see where someone would point that out.
I am literally non of those things and really love it when a company has the balls to do something daring and challenging .
so when someone bashes the SL I only see them saying to the manufactures Be boring keep your head down don't try anything cutting edge or else I'll be here to unleash my internet power on you .
One person on the internet, even if they are completely wrong even if they have zero qualifications - has the power to influence thousands of people.
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i think some of the "bashing" might be constructive, while some is not -- i'm guilty of both.... perhaps the constructive criticisms may even help D going forward, or not. even the ex-product manager chimed in on the inferior paint scheme of the 1299sl......it's just a forum in the end, and even the bashers, i suspect, are all Ducati diehards and want only the best for the co...
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keyword: perception, longevity and durability notwithstanding. my ocd is on the fail rate of a rim that regularly hits potholes -- unlike aluminum rims which may deform and give hints to potential/immanent failure, cf fails all at once in a more catastrophic fashion, and sure the epoxies have improved, but in the end it's a bunch of weave held together by resins......this may simply be my stubborn failing to appreciate the tech, but i also am not a big fan of this weave aesthetic anyhow....
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At the end of the day, we are all entitled to opinions on this, but manufacturers spend millions each year in R&D. If it doesn't hold up, they could never sell it.......
"Hi, can I please buy £70k worth of certain mechanical failure and possibly death?"
"Of course sir, would you like a warranty with that?"
I'm not saying it couldn't or wouldn't ever fail, everything can fail, but it wouldn't even leave the drawing board.
.............If you're regularly hitting potholes then I suggest improving your observational skills or stop trying to ride a sports bike on a dirt track!
"Hi, can I please buy £70k worth of certain mechanical failure and possibly death?"
"Of course sir, would you like a warranty with that?"
I'm not saying it couldn't or wouldn't ever fail, everything can fail, but it wouldn't even leave the drawing board.
.............If you're regularly hitting potholes then I suggest improving your observational skills or stop trying to ride a sports bike on a dirt track!
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