22+ V4 chassis geometry

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andyb said:
Spooky….. @spooky take a picture of the bottom eye of you shock and post it please!


What you will see is a std factory fitted ttx with a length eye to eye of 315/316 and the bottom lock nut tightened way beyond the threads on that wide space marker!
Click to expand...
I’m away from home at the moment and I don’t have a picture of it. I can take one when I get back home, probably 26 December…
 
CanyonCarver said:
Check these two out on a factory bike with just some race pads, set sag and usual fork adjustment. 2-3 seconds off their race bike times. Yes, these guys are body steering the bike because counter steering while leaned over is asking the tire to do opposite things. While gyroscope precession will roll the bike opposite of bar input, the tire is also now pointed outside of its balanced arc/path which reduces total available grip. Be careful doing this because you will tuck the front. If the bike wont tip in, you either need to drop the front end more or look further around the corner. If you are paying attention to lean angle with peripheral vision, you'll never hit the angle. If you look well through the turn and think about going faster, you'll start dragging knees and elbows without even trying because the angle is coming to you, because of speed.

Also, riders at this pace are professional athletes, think hundreds of single legged pistol squats a day and probably as many miles climbing hills on a bike. The pegs are high because they are insanely flexible and it allows a shorter rider to get further off the bike on the opposite side. I have a Fireblade and that thing from factory makes my R6 look like a sport touring machine! That bike is also way above my ability.

The OEM's have to gear a bike towards the masses, that is what sells. Honda has a CBR for the street/canyons and homologated version RR-R for track work, club and pro sanctioned racing, not a single common part between the two. I wouldn't spend too much time on the nuts and bolts at our level, just more on flexibility, strength and stamina. Again, the video below on stock production bikes! I promise you, these two are not thinking about rake and trail.

No Ohlins!

Click to expand...

There was me thinking it’s a forum.. so people discuss stuff and it’s a Ducati forum…so the discussions relate to ducati🤷🏼‍♂️

99.9 % of us are useless so that’s why we are on a forum… still could be worse…. trying to be a hero on a public road spring to mind🤷🏼‍♂️
 
And the real answer is… 316😎 when you actually/practically look at several of the 23R bikes rather than relying on the confusing information. Coupled with the 140.5 tie rod length.
 
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This thread is hilarious. If someone is saying they a geometry change makes them able to get their knee down they need to learn to ride first. And counter steering is not something you think about, you do it naturally. Anyhow….

100mm trail is just a starting point. More trial will make the steering feel heavier which means that when you start to lose traction (the bar goes light) you will feel it earlier. It will also finish the turn better. Once you’re in the ball park you go by feel. I.e Does the bike require input to hold you in the turn or does it want to fall in.

I went through all this on my 848/1198 with adjustable offsets, ride higher links, flat rate links, longer swingarm etc. then brought a 23 V4S and did nothing other than heavier springs, and set sags, fitted adjustable rear sets and nice levers. I did my PB on my first session. The bike turns so well it almost feels like cheating. I just tweak preload a bit depending on the track.
Just needs to do some revalving as there is not enough hydraulic control with the stiffer fork strings.
I am so far from the limit of this bike atm I haven’t even bothered with fork height.
 
Started with 10.5 and I weigh 82kg using either 9.5 or 10 shock spring (can’t remember)
But running 10 fork spring atm as there isn’t enough rebound damping in it from a 10.5. will go back to 10.5 when I revalve it.
I’m still bottoming !
 
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Are you going to do the valve work yourself? I suppose you'd have to remove the cartridges from the form bottoms. Is there a standard way to re-valve for what spring you are running? I never had my forks that far apart.

I went from the OEM 10 Nm to 11 Nm, at the time I was 196 lbs (89 Kg) w/o gear. To get my sag right I was right at 8 turns, which is midway in the adjustment range, which was higher than I thought it would be. I suspect if I get up to a decent pace I'd need to go to 12 Nm and take some preload out. But, I don't think the dynamic suspension mode is doing enough dampening. I wonder if re-valving the forks, merely increasing the dynamic settings or just running fixed makes the most sense.
 
BP PanigaleV4S said:
Are you going to do the valve work yourself? I suppose you'd have to remove the cartridges from the form bottoms. Is there a standard way to re-valve for what spring you are running? I never had my forks that far apart.

I went from the OEM 10 Nm to 11 Nm, at the time I was 196 lbs (89 Kg) w/o gear. To get my sag right I was right at 8 turns, which is midway in the adjustment range, which was higher than I thought it would be. I suspect if I get up to a decent pace I'd need to go to 12 Nm and take some preload out. But, I don't think the dynamic suspension mode is doing enough dampening. I wonder if re-valving the forks, merely increasing the dynamic settings or just running fixed makes the most sense.
Click to expand...
I will revalve myself but I will need to by some new tools as they are gas charged forks. I won’t know exactly what valving specs to use but I can get some advise from the people I will buy the tools (and my springs) from. Once I have the tools I can try different valving. It will need more higher speed rebound and compression.
 
yoshiboldor said:
This thread is hilarious. If someone is saying they a geometry change makes them able to get their knee down they need to learn to ride first. And counter steering is not something you think about, you do it naturally. Anyhow….

100mm trail is just a starting point. More trial will make the steering feel heavier which means that when you start to lose traction (the bar goes light) you will feel it earlier. It will also finish the turn better. Once you’re in the ball park you go by feel. I.e Does the bike require input to hold you in the turn or does it want to fall in.

I went through all this on my 848/1198 with adjustable offsets, ride higher links, flat rate links, longer swingarm etc. then brought a 23 V4S and did nothing other than heavier springs, and set sags, fitted adjustable rear sets and nice levers. I did my PB on my first session. The bike turns so well it almost feels like cheating. I just tweak preload a bit depending on the track.
Just needs to do some revalving as there is not enough hydraulic control with the stiffer fork strings.
I am so far from the limit of this bike atm I haven’t even bothered with fork height.
Click to expand...
This post is hilarious. Of course it’s going to turn well when all you do is ride to Starbucks. Ironic that you can’t even sort out your spring rates and you’re trying to tell me/us how to set up a bike. Also you do realize that changing preload is the poor man’s way of changing geometry?

At 8 pages, I think this thread has way too much drivel in it but in summary

- Stock trail with properly set sag is not 100 mm rather it's 104-105 at track tire pressures
- Dropping the forks to have the top caps 14 mm above the stock triple equates to 99-100 mm trail
- Stock riding position isn't ideal for my height. Raising the bars should help
 
yoshiboldor said:
I will revalve myself but I will need to by some new tools as they are gas charged forks. I won’t know exactly what valving specs to use but I can get some advise from the people I will buy the tools (and my springs) from. Once I have the tools I can try different valving. It will need more higher speed rebound and compression.
Click to expand...
Have you tried adding braking support in DES?
 
SuperDomestique said:
Have you tried adding braking support in DES?
Click to expand...
Yep it helps but it still doesn’t have enough compression dampening to fix it.

And I cant use dynamic mode with the stiffer springs as there is not enough rebound. so I have to use manual mode and run the rebound within a click or two from full to make it rideable. When I brought it I had a guy who was racing tell me that with the stiffer springs I would still need to revalve it to avoid bottoming, but I didn’t beleive him……he was right.
It’s not terrible but I’m on the bottom.

It will be interesting to see how Dynamic mode works when I have revalved it? My guess is I will still end up in manual mode.

For street riding I would have left it all standard as it works well, just that I do 90% of my riding on the track and on tracks the needs heavy is brake support.

And FYi I would never drink anything from Starbucks ! 😉
 
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andyb said:
Bugger…

I ride Jerez Brno portimao Aragon mugello Seville estoril Valencia Le Mans Silverstone donington brands
Click to expand...
Our tracks are small but in good condition.
I have ridden Phillip island but years ago in my old GSXR, and I did the bend this year on the V4 which is an awesome circuit in South Australia. And did it on the 1198 in 2022
Very envious of people in Europe being so close to so many great circuits
 

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