22+ V4 chassis geometry

baggerman · Monday at 11:14 AM

SuperDomestique said:
Amazing what reducing trail by a couple mm will do

And just as amazing sometimes is just what a couple mm of CG change can make.

spooky · Monday at 11:22 AM

baggerman said:
And just as amazing sometimes is just what a couple mm of CG change can make.

Only vaguely related, but I seem to remember reading about James Hunt struggling with his car’s handling until they moved the battery and the handling was transformed…

SuperDomestique · Monday at 11:54 AM

If I was to make a rear shock length change, I'd probably only do +2 mm to get the geometry to the service manual 23 R spec which I think Karl mentioned a while back. But this bike is most likely on its way out of the garage.

baggerman · Monday at 12:08 PM

SuperDomestique said:
I've pretty much did this. 4mm on the fork vs 4 mm at the rear are basically the same. Raising the rear would influence Cg more. It's also more of a faff.

But someone with Motospec should confirm this practically

They're not the same. Raising the rear changes rake primarily (yes and the associated trail) but shortening the fork decreasing trail by both changing the rake and decreasing the length of the hypotenuse and the drop is changed by head angle (the drop is not measured relative to the ground). And we're ignoring the anti-squat changes. The nice thing about the older superbikes is that you could change the rear ride height in about 5 minutes. These not so much. If you want to mess with rear ride height dogbones be way easier.

andyb · Monday at 12:53 PM

SuperDomestique said:
If I was to make a rear shock length change, I'd probably only do +2 mm to get the geometry to the service manual 23 R spec which I think Karl mentioned a while back. But this bike is most likely on its way out of the garage.

You really are dumb! “ to get the geometry to the service manual 23 r spec”
The sa pivot is different, the tie rods are different, m and if your bike is a 22s then the std shock is 312 so plus 2mm is 314…..

Carry on in your clueless fantasy!

spooky · Monday at 12:59 PM

andyb said:
You really are dumb! “ to get the geometry to the service manual 23 r spec”
The sa pivot is different, the tie rods are different, m and if your bike is a 22s then the std shock is 312 so plus 2mm is 314…..

Carry on in your clueless fantasy!

Did you notice the DP adjustable rear suspension linkage in the configurator for the new V4? Not something I’ve seen before.

andyb · Monday at 1:01 PM

spooky said:
Did you notice the DP adjustable rear suspension linkage in the configurator for the new V4? Not something I’ve seen before.

At least they have sorted that with the dssa I bet it was stupid money..,

spooky · Monday at 1:13 PM

andyb said:
At least they have sorted that with the dssa I bet it was stupid money..,

£335.

https://www.ducati.com/ww/en/accessories/ACC012767

For the new V4 with DSSA.

SuperDomestique · Monday at 2:23 PM

andyb said:
std shock is 312

You really are dumb! Might want to double check that number. The Bible says otherwise.

BP PanigaleV4S · Monday at 3:11 PM

andyb said:
But you can’t just isolate one bit .. there are other measurements to add into the equation ..

My curiosity is that Ducati went to some effort to segment their various Panigale models.

Raising the rear of the bike raises the center of gravity and reduces trail. It make sense considering @spooky statement on riding the R vs the SP.

Likely so people hop on it and think it has some V4R magic and turns amazing but it little more than a tweak of geometry.

It would seem for a S the shock length is 310mm, early R models having 312mm, and later R models being 316mm.

If a 1mm addition in shock length is 2mm more height, to get 20mm out of +4, the additional height would have to be linkage and swingarm pivot as there is 12mm not accounted for in the shock length change.

I think it's easier to change the rear shock length and one turn is 1mm. Well, if you have the Akra exhaust and can remove the cans, support the rear pegs on jackstands etc.

yoshiboldor · Monday at 9:12 PM

spooky said:
£335.

https://www.ducati.com/ww/en/accessories/ACC012767

For the new V4 with DSSA.

Pity they don’t do one for 22/23, it was so easy on the twins being able to adjust the rear height so quickly.

andyb · Tuesday at 12:34 AM

BP PanigaleV4S said:
My curiosity is that Ducati went to some effort to segment their various Panigale models.

Raising the rear of the bike raises the center of gravity and reduces trail. It make sense considering @spooky statement on riding the R vs the SP.

Likely so people hop on it and think it has some V4R magic and turns amazing but it little more than a tweak of geometry.

It would seem for a S the shock length is 310mm, early R models having 312mm, and later R models being 316mm.

If a 1mm addition in shock length is 2mm more height, to get 20mm out of +4, the additional height would have to be linkage and swingarm pivot as there is 12mm not accounted for in the shock length change.

I think it's easier to change the rear shock length and one turn is 1mm. Well, if you have the Akra exhaust and can remove the cans, support the rear pegs on jackstands etc.

But according to their numbers the seat height is the same R and S

andyb · Tuesday at 12:38 AM

SuperDomestique said:
You really are dumb! Might want to double check that number. The Bible says otherwise.

View attachment 59000

So by your numbers to get to the “geometry” of a R is now an additional 6mm you need to add not a “couple of mm” even though there is other stuff going on yep dumb!

Plus again as you haven’t measured yours you are pissing in the wind… and you have already identified what Ducati write and what occurs are different things!

BP PanigaleV4S · Tuesday at 5:52 AM

andyb said:
But according to their numbers the seat height is the same R and S

Which is very likely Ducati never updating the seat height numbers.

andyb · Tuesday at 6:28 AM

Who knows…..? I guess only those who have checked it …..

SuperDomestique · Tuesday at 8:04 AM

andyb said:
So by your numbers to get to the “geometry” of a R is now an additional 6mm you need to add not a “couple of mm” even though there is other stuff going on yep dumb!

Plus again as you haven’t measured yours you are pissing in the wind… and you have already identified what Ducati write and what occurs are different things!

By this logic, I should disassemble the engine to make sure it's bore x stroke is correct... Did you double check Motospec's calculated numbers by calculating things on your own? PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE!

The least Ducati could do is be accurate on their specs and update documentation to reflect things.

BP PanigaleV4S · Tuesday at 8:13 AM

andyb said:
Who knows…..? I guess only those who have checked it …..

Very helpful post as always. Thanks for really furthering the conversation.

andyb · Tuesday at 8:56 AM

SuperDomestique said:
By this logic, I should disassemble the engine to make sure it's bore x stroke is correct... Did you double check Motospec's calculated numbers by calculating things on your own? PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE!

The least Ducati could do is be accurate on their specs and update documentation to reflect things.

funnily enough...you are being a ......par for the course.

with regard to the shock length, even you have established the written stuff doesn't appear to corroborate the actual measurement. There for, so you know exactly where you are starting from you need to measure what YOU have so YOU know exactly where you are starting from... and not the back of a ... packet.

andyb · Tuesday at 9:00 AM

BP PanigaleV4S said:
Very helpful post as always. Thanks for really furthering the conversation.

So you know? the point is their documentation says the same for the seat height on a R and S.... but do we believe it? Have you measured yours on whatever bike you have?

I keep saying the fact that the shock is longer doesn't necessarily mean a higher seat position. As the tie rods are longer and that brings it back down.

Whist we are at it Motospec can be whatever you want it to be....just fill in the boxes..

baggerman · Tuesday at 9:30 AM

SD's lighter than most of us. He needs to remember that because of this the CG on the bike will be lower and further back. I think it will work better for him if he makes the bike steeper yet.

22+ V4 chassis geometry

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