broke my bleeder nipple off

1hander said:

i start at the the master then move to the left caliper then the right, thats how i have been doing for 38 years.
i do have teflon tape on the bleeders mostly to stop the fluid getting around the threads and making a mess..
always used the pump the lever and open the bleeder method, never failed me.
the reason i think it just has trapped air from surface tension, is after i got what i though was all the air out
i had the pressure feed on..opened the bleeder at the outlet of the abs pump.. it was clear no air
i gave it a couple of bumps with a rubber mallet and craploads of air comes out..then clears up..
i did the same with the mallet on the calipers...clear until i bumped hehm with the mallet then air then clear again.

only thing i noticed off was as i applied the brake..i could hear like flexing or creaking from the brakes, maybe the calipers are misaligned somehow

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This is the first bike I've had with ABS. Normally I'd just tie the lever off tap the calipers some and leave it tied off overnight. The pressure forces the bubbles up. Has always worked. Does the ABS pump BS defeat that?

Is this tied to the allegedly self bleeding masters? My friends clutch master (the self bleeding kind) needed to have the port opening point changed (the little screw that engages the piston). He said on his bike there ain't one.

Isn't the noise from the calipers just the pistons pushing on the pads?

i put the original pr16 back on and i looks like its holding and the bubbles have stopped, so im thinking was the brembo axial masters putting air in, even after new seals, i cany figure it out, i bought and rebuilt 2 used units, leaked.. bought two new ones,, 1 showed up with a scar on he bore it was trash and leaked air and the one good 1 i had that was new i broke the damn nipple off of in this thread. i have 1 more used unit on the way and ill rebuild it and check the bore ,
if that dont work, ill have tp send some money to pfm. and buy one of their master cylinders

on the used ones i even went as far as replacing the reservoir feed seal on them all. ..still didnt work.. pumping the lever would allow air into the bore somehow and i cat figure out how.. maybe they are wrecked units and the bores are out of round, i did not check for roundness on them. but i will do an autopsy see what i find if anything

i think the noise is the metal tabs thaa are in calipers to keep pressure on the pads .. the anti rattle springs.

these mastersa re definitely not the self bleed kind. i think im just having a really bad stream of bad master cylinders, even two new ones did not work, so im talking to PFM on the isle of man about purchasing either their universal adjustable twin master or their cncd 17mm axial master. really nice pieces 1120.00 and 460.00 respectively.

Are the levers somehow not allowing the master to close completely leaving the port open when the levers released? Piston has to be completely released (a little free play at the lever). Otherwise they suck air in. Seems like too many bad ones in a row.

I agree way too many bad ones to mot be suspect ..but no sir ..they are fully extended in the resting position ...buy very good point that i did not consider..i have a pazzo lever on it so that could be an issue..i will reinstsll and put the original brrmbo lever back on but it feels and looks right..when in doubt go back to factory right..thanks for that

i just installed the original lever on the master (not on the bike), the pazzo lever allows an almost unperceivable amount of free play before the pushrod hits the piston, but when i wiggle it back and forth repeatedly i can definitely feel a very slight gap.but its less than .5mm . the psc16 brembo lever assembly(original lever) allows quite a bit more comparatively ...about .8-1.5mm before the pushrod hits the piston. so maybe thats causing a problem..

i checked this morning and the pr16 radial is still holding, although a bit mushier from having bands on the lever all night. so i will rebleed and once all the air is out, i will wait for the last master to come in.. rebuild it..try it with the pazzo lever installed, if im still getting air, i will install the brembo original to see if theres a change. im happy at least i narrowed it down to the master and not operator error, i dont have a problem with being wrong i was just going f..ing crazy

i got another used master in, put new seals in it, check the bore for roundness there is only like .0003 of OOR to it.. not enough to cause a problem, i checked the bores of the other and they are all .0003-.0004 OOR , also not enough to cause a leak... but i checked anyway..

then i used the original lever (thanks baggerman)on the master instead of the pazzo.. which turned out not to be a genuine pazzo.. there is about 1.5,, of pretravel before the pin even hits the back of the piston with the oem lever .. then i put the pazzo on, and if there was slack it was unperceivable by me.. i put the oem brembo lever back on and assembled and started to bleed with the pressure feed setup i made.. until no bubbles came out anywhere.. let it sit for 30 minutes..bled the master again and only minimal bubbles came out on one stroke of the lever.. did the calipers and more air came out of them.. bled at the abs pump tapped with a rubber mallet, and very little came out maybe a .5mm bubble tiny little guy..

came back an hour later...no air from any where and the lever feels pretty close to the pr16 original master..so theres a small window in the weather..
i go for test ride, abs on highest setting, i immediately notice that even though i have lever pressure i have no friction at the disc... i wait for them to heat up HH pads..which they should immediately have friction in them even cold. .. finally i get them hot enough to bite...SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT..after i get them hot the lever collapses again and its on my knuckle with the bike coming to a slow stop..

i get back home.come back out 30 minutes later and the lever is back to what it was before riding...... i start the bleed over again FL more air FR more air... master cylinder-one teeny bubble.. maybe the abs pump let go of some air when i was whackin on the brake lever to get the as to engage ..cold road cold tires so it was slippery enough for it to kick in.

i checked this morning and there seems to be no more air coming from anywhere. i think that is at least done with that
i took the pads out to investigate and it looks like i contaminated them with brake fluid.. there were blue hot spots right on the edges then kindo of smearing down the pads..more on the right caliper than left..so i have another set and those go in the trash. and this time im putting the rotors in the mill 4th axis and using a rotor disc hone in the spindle to remove all traces of the old pads or possible contaminate brake pad material embedded on them..

i called pazzo and their part number for the brake levers im using are DB-80 etched oh the pivot block.. i looked this one and i see D-80 ..which they immediately tell me is a convincing fake. so thats why the lever did not have proper end play, idk if that was the problem, but for now the master does not seem to be producing anymore air like it was
big thanks to baggerman for giving that bit of light. i think that may have been the problem, although i want to put the other lever back to see of the air problem comes back..

next step clean rotors, wait for weather test ride... check for air in the system, if all is good then, its good if not.. last option is the pfm dual master.

I hope it works out. Keep us apprised.

@1hander Do you maybe have a leak elsewhere? The fit of the bleeders is pretty suspect IMO.

This spring I'm replacing the clutch slave with an Oberon part and swapping out all of the bleeders for Stahlbus ones including a bleeder banjo at the clutch slave. I'll have to fiddle with the OBDStar and see if there's any way to run the ABS pump during bleeding. I thought about getting bleeder banjo bolts for the ABS banjo bolts.

my son said the same thing thats alot of bleeders..LOL.. it was an experiment to see how much if any air was trapped in the end of the banjo bolts..but it does seem like their is air trapped under the banjo heads,, i would bleed till all air was gone..then when i would turn the bars to the left when bleeding the right caliper, which puts the right bleeder banjo at highest point, a litlte more air would come ourt.. the turn bars to the right which tilts caliper and puts the inside bleeder on the right caliper at the highest point, a little more would come out. it seems that there was air on one side that was getting out of the bleeder banjo..which would then come out of the factory bleeder, both side would do this...the bleeder banjo at the master cylinder would also release a bit more air after bleeding at the brembo master factory bleed point.

also i cleaned all bleeders off with brake cleaner till there was no fluid in them..including insider the nipples, and then blew them out to see if there was possibly a leak. hooked up the fluid pressure feeder, bled the system till no air came out at all, cleaned everything off meticulously ...then i left it pressurized to 40psi..overnight..next morning i inspected to look for any fluid ...including putting rolled up paper towel into the bleeder nipple holes to look for any fluid , around the banjo washers, anywhere there as a connection..and i found zero fluid seeping anywhere. i would think that 40psi of brake fluid pressure would produce at least a little weeping.. but there was none.. i even checked the caliper piston seals.. i dont know for sure but i would think that the system is put under more pressure when really clamping on the brakes. but i do not have any knowledge of line pressure during use.

i was up all night long checking over and over, i was paranoid that the feed line from the fluid pot, a seal, or the reservoir hose would pop and cover the bike in brake fluid...man do i hate brake i wish there was an alternative that is not caustic to paint ..

i hear those stahlbus bleeders are the cats nutz...there is limited space at the side of the abs pump for bleeders so depending on how long the stahlbus bleeders are they might hit your fairings.. just need to clean off the rotors for the new pads. and try again.

Yeah, it was no .... $270 or so. That's a .... ton for bleeders but I always wanted to try them and it's a fun project so there's value in the time spent working on it.

I have a 2021 Panigale which is a wide body. I'd think there's a lot of room there, but not entirely sure.

Could you completely evacuate the system and pull a vacuum on it and measure it overnight? Maybe with a smartphone on timelapse to record the gauge?

With the Stahlbus, their fill procedure is to draw a vacuum on the bleeder to fill the circuit. The V4 is maybe odd as the right caliper has a double banjo which feeds the left.

Conventional wisdom is to start the bleeding further from the master, but I wonder in this case if it's better to start from the right then progress to the left.

ive been doing the master so as to fill it, and not pump further air into the system..then the FL then FR then ABS bleeders first the out then the in..i did not change that pattern the entire time im afraid..your fairings are wider i didnt think that part..

i wonder if i could pull a vacuum from the reservoir cup..the pressure filler setup i made has a fitting on an old reservoir cap.so i could pull a vacuum on that , im just not sure if it would work because of the umbrella or bell shape design of the seals in the master, they are designed to seal with pressure in one direction..i think pulling vacuum would force the skirts of the seals to lift from the bore surface. if i use the AC vacuum i think it would over power the seals..a small vacuum pump i think would not make enough /vacuum..

maybe i could pressurize with sayyyy.. with an inert gas like mig welding gas 75/25 , i have a setup to pressurize my cars AC system when i service it to look for leaks, it is capable of going as low as 10psi regulated..then i could close the bottle valve and the pressure at the regulator gauge would be the system pressure. if theres a leak that would surely find it. by showing the gauge drop. maybe i wont have to but if air shows up again then its getting in somewhere and it has to be found.
i really think the damn fake lever was causing the problem but only a little time will tell, im not holding my breath

thanks for the idea boss

I've heard of guys doing reverse fills where you inject fluid into the bleeder until you fill the reservoir. That won't work with any type of speed bleeders though.

interesting. id like to know how ducati does it at the factory

The video I saw there was so many air bubbles you'd have a stroke. Search YouTube for Ducati factory videos.

andyb said:

It will be operator error……what process routine are you going through to bleed it?

Take all the bleed nipples out and tape the threads for a start. It may well be leaking air in when they are loose so you are not achieving your aim

Secondlly you could try getting a large syringe fill it with your brake fluid add some bleed pipe connecting it to the caliper and gently push the fluid in ie reverse bleed it

Finally recirculating fluid is wrong as it will be full of micro bubbles so you are effectively adding air and fluid.

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see here....reverse bleeding!

andyb said:

see here....reverse bleeding!

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i see the procedure but...not using a procedure that i have never used and is my first time im hearing of it. because i have never had a problem using the old methods even with abs systems in place... does not make it operator error imo, if i was employing the reverse feed method and doing it improperly it would be operator error.

i used a fresh bottle the last time i bled for the aeration problem.. i went as far as making king a way to degas the brake fluid i was recirculating in between bleeds..with a 2 stage vacuum pump ..it works extremely well, to the point the fluid looks like its boiling almost..kinda cool.... which i did not mention because i didnt feel it necessary
there was no air last time i bled so if i get air again, i will try the reverse method, i can see the benefit of pushing the air up instead of down,
i wanted to change variables 1 at a time ,so i could find out what the problem actually is. the second to last thing i changed was degassing was the second to last thing i did. and was still getting air.. then baggerman mentioned the lever might be blocking the piston from coming all the way back.. and i found out that i have a counterfeit lever which is not machined the same as the oem pivot block so did not have much if any at all endplay...the last thing i changed was going back to the oem lever..which may have been the problem..still need to check for air today. and some other things waiting for weather to open up.

but at any rate, thanks for the reverse bleed info, i appreciate all knowledge people share with me. .. i will employ that next if it is still a problem

baggerman said:

This is the first bike I've had with ABS. Normally I'd just tie the lever off tap the calipers some and leave it tied off overnight. The pressure forces the bubbles up. Has always worked. Does the ABS pump BS defeat thathati

Click to expand...

I would think it has an effect because the abs pump is the lowest part in the system..the lines from the brakes go up then down to the pump..then lune goes back up to the master ..think an inverted Y shape and the abs pump is at the left leg ..calupers at right leg and master at the top leg

I'd take the ABS off but apparently it's a real PIA. I'm not a fan of the self bleeding masters either. How's your bike?