CycleWorld Compares 1199 to 1190RX

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In 5 years the Buell will be worth 10 cents on the dollar, the Ducati will still command a premium price. I know this from first hand experience, I guess Ducati isn't schmoozing up to the magazine higher ups. I wish Eric Buell all the luck in the world, but he will never ever get another penny out of me. Once was more than enough.
 
I loved and I mean absolutely loved my x1 lightning. Too bad I was in college at the time and did not take care of it properly or leaving it outside uncovered rain or shine or snow. But I would pick one up in a heartbeat if the right one came by my way and I had the extra dough.
 
Sat on one yesterday. Rims look cheap, swingarm looks weak, just overall impression it looks poorly made.
 
gramps said:
I'm with Jarel. I thought the article was pretty biased.

One thing that struck me as I was looking at the pictures was Buell's decision on the exhaust. Some people give Buell credit for making the underhung exhaust a reality on modern sportbikes. I've even seen people give him credit for the Ducati going that direction. He had most if not all the old Buell's fitted with the under the bike exhaust and made a good argument why it was placed at that particular spot. Now fast forward to his newest version with all the other little details he put in such as brake cooling scoops, and he puts the exhaust on the side that is reminiscent of 2003.

What gives EBR?

Did he forget about the exhaust in the design process and just throw something on there to pass regulations?

:cool:
Click to expand...

bwaide said:
It's an emissions thing, the 1190RS shipped out a similar exhaust. Here it is with the racing exhaust.
Click to expand...


Don't know and don't really care if it's BS but here's what he says about it:
"Our engineers found that a secondary resonator has a large benefit to helping a V-twin make power and mid-range. The resonator provides an opportunity for a quarter-wave tuner that adds mid-range performance while meeting noise regulations."
 
jarelj said:
This is one of the most hilarious motorcycle reviews I've ever read! Both bikes have the exact same price, but the Ducati weighs less, has more power, is faster, laps around the track quicker, has better electronics, has better brakes, and looks better. Yet in every photo, the Buell is in front of the Ducati, and in every comparison statement excuses are made regarding how the Buell isn't quite a good but somehow they still like it better. The main point being it's more comfortable and doesn't put off as much heat. In every other respect the Ducati is better. And the conclusion: begrudgingly they have to "give the nod" to the Ducati, but by the narrowest of margins, mainly they're just happy that the Buell is American. :rolleyes:

EBR 1190RX vs. Ducati 1199 Panigale Superbike Comparison Test Review
Click to expand...

Now please explain this to me: "While the EBR's rim-brake setup allows for a very light cast wheel that definitely showed itself in easier cornering transitions and turn-in". I always thought that disks on the perimeter of the wheel would make the rotational mass and gyroscopic forces much higher?
I also fail to see how the wheel could be lighter because of it. Surely the rim would have to be made of sturdier (heavier) fabric as the disks are mounted on it? :eek:
 
Claymore said:
Now please explain this to me: "While the EBR's rim-brake setup allows for a very light cast wheel that definitely showed itself in easier cornering transitions and turn-in". I always thought that disks on the perimeter of the wheel would make the rotational mass and gyroscopic forces much higher?
I also fail to see how the wheel could be lighter because of it. Surely the rim would have to be made of sturdier (heavier) fabric as the disks are mounted on it? :eek:
Click to expand...

I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but it only has a brake on one side. I'm guessing that is where some of the benefit comes from. But generally speaking, I agree with your post. I suppose maybe the braking forces are multiplied by the disk being out near the rim also.
 
jjsC6 said:
I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but it only has a brake on one side. I'm guessing that is where some of the benefit comes from. But generally speaking, I agree with your post. I suppose maybe the braking forces are multiplied by the disk being out near the rim also.
Click to expand...

jjsC6 I think that rotational forces are also multiplied the further away from the centre it is, so the Buell's one disk may possibly have greater rotational forces than both the Panigale's. Expert opinion any one?
One thing is certain, the Panigale does not suffer from any shortage of braking forces and it is also easily to modulate. :cool:
 
Claymore said:
jjsC6 I think that rotational forces are also multiplied the further away from the centre it is, so the Buell's one disk may possibly have greater rotational forces than both the Panigale's. Expert opinion any one?
One thing is certain, the Panigale does not suffer from any shortage of braking forces and it is also easily to modulate. :cool:
Click to expand...

One question:

If that Buell brake set up is so good why don't the GP boys use it? They aren't regulated to their twin rotor set up.
 
The design offers greater surface area, better cooling, and is probably more rigid. By using a single side they reduce the complexity of the design which could improve reliability, variability and cost.

It is also true that the further the weight is placed from the axle the greater the effects of inertia.

$0.02
 
Claymore said:
Now please explain this to me: "While the EBR’s rim-brake setup allows for a very light cast wheel that definitely showed itself in easier cornering transitions and turn-in". I always thought that disks on the perimeter of the wheel would make the rotational mass and gyroscopic forces much higher?
I also fail to see how the wheel could be lighter because of it. Surely the rim would have to be made of sturdier (heavier) fabric as the disks are mounted on it? :eek:
Click to expand...

Rim is the same strength. As a standard rim still has too do the same work.

There is a part of the wheel that has less work to do. The spokes. The spokes no longer need to carry the braking force at the center of the wheel to the rim. They only support the weight of the bike now. So they can be thinner.

Look at the ugly Buell wheel. It almost looks like a spoked dirtbike wheel. If you put a supermotard wheel on an 1199, it would taco the 1st time you grab the brakes hard. That being said, don't expect WSBK or MotoGP to adopt single front brakes anytime soon.

Also note: One of biggest reasons mountainbikes went to disc brakes, hot rims were bad for the tubes and tires. How much heat gets to that rim on the Buell???

As for the lighter handling, I think the S still has the edge over the Buell. So it's an easy fix for the base model. (Wheels, rear shock, fork cartridge)

I rode an olde school "Streetfighter" Buell a while ago. Was a really nice comfortable, fun ride. Insane comfort, likely the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. I could cruise all day on that thing. Not a sportbike at all. Kinda like a small Monster with a crappy Harley transmission. I'd rather ride a Ducati Hypermotard though.
 
Buliwyf said:
Rim is the same strength. As a standard rim still has too do the same work.

There is a part of the wheel that has less work to do. The spokes. The spokes no longer need to carry the braking force at the center of the wheel to the rim. They only support the weight of the bike now. So they can be thinner.

Look at the ugly Buell wheel. It almost looks like a spoked dirtbike wheel. If you put a supermotard wheel on an 1199, it would taco the 1st time you grab the brakes hard. That being said, don't expect WSBK or MotoGP to adopt single front brakes anytime soon.

Also note: One of biggest reasons mountainbikes went to disc brakes, hot rims were bad for the tubes and tires. How much heat gets to that rim on the Buell???

As for the lighter handling, I think the S still has the edge over the Buell. So it's an easy fix for the base model. (Wheels, rear shock, fork cartridge)

I rode an olde school "Streetfighter" Buell a while ago. Was a really nice comfortable, fun ride. Insane comfort, likely the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. I could cruise all day on that thing. Not a sportbike at all. Kinda like a small Monster with a crappy Harley transmission. I'd rather ride a Ducati Hypermotard though.
Click to expand...

Isn't there a part of the wheel that have to do more work and will therefore have to be stronger (the rim and the most damaging part as far as it goes re rotational force or inertia)? it follows logically that even though the spokes are now lighter the rim must be heavier as the disk mounts to it and the mounts must be sturdy enough to transmit those braking forces?
The forks and fork brace must be stronger too as it must resist the torsional forces single sided braking will generate?
Just me being curious...
 
Maybe it's because the 1199 is my first Ducati, but I don't get nearly as offended as some other owners when the journalists don't join in the Panigale drooling process:eek: I think the Buell looks pretty good and is an outstanding first effort.
 
Claymore said:
Isn't there a part of the wheel that have to do more work and will therefore have to be stronger (the rim and the most damaging part as far as it goes re rotational force or inertia)? it follows logically that even though the spokes are now lighter the rim must be heavier as the disk mounts to it and the mounts must be sturdy enough to transmit those braking forces?
The forks and fork brace must be stronger too as it must resist the torsional forces single sided braking will generate?
Just me being curious...
Click to expand...

Personally I don't like the idea of bolting into cast aluminum at multiple points near the rim edge which could fail from over torquing or heat cycling depending on how much is conducted into the rim mass. Forget about the negative effect on the braking were it too fail. :eek: I also wonder how balancing the wheel is done given the lack of symmetry of the design and the fact that the rotor is a wearing part? Mountain bike speeds generally do not create the flow needed to cool their brakes. Good application for discs since having the rims fail from the pad wear or the bead failing from heat sucks on the downhill. :D
 
Buell makes good stuff

Why are some of you so butt-hurt that Cycle World compared the 1199 to the 1190RX? The companies are comparable as they point out that racing is ingrained in the DNA of both companies. The big point here is that infinitesimal EBR has put out a bike that is actually close to the performance of an 1199.

As many of you are so drunk on the Ducati Kool-Aid, I was once drunk on the Buell Kool-Aid. I've owned 3 Buells and they were exceptional experiences. My favorites were a 2005 XB9SX Lightning and a 2009 1125R. The 1125R in particular was an amazing bike. The Buell trademark super-steep steering geometry just flat works, providing detailed feedback on the front wheel and boosting confidence. The Zero Torsional Load (ZTL) perimeter brake system works as advertised and it has been in use since 2004 on many Buell models. Furthermore it was further developed and proven in the heat of battle by winning the 2009 AMA Pro Daytona Sportbike Championship with Danny Eslick on the 1125R.

Sure, that bike had a ridiculous displacement advantage over the 600cc inline-4s, but it didn't win Daytona and it wouldn't have won at Mid-Ohio or Heartland Park if it didn't handle or brake well. The 1125R is to this date, the best streetbike I've owned in over 23 years of doing this. The Buell-designed, Rotax Built twin delivers loads of mid-range torque while still having a nice bump up top, the Showa suspension was well-damped and ideally calibrated for fast road riding. The XB9SX was just simply a hoot to ride. With a crazy loud exhaust it had a short, but lively powerband and the stubby little bike would turn inside of just about anything.

Here is a video of a friend on a 2005 R1 following me on my 1125R up and down Blood Mountain in north Georgia. On the way back up the mountain (skip to 5:38 for when it gets good on the way back up) he was spinning up in a few places to keep up. I was only riding at about 75%, my max comfortable pace for the street, the Dunlop Q2s not slipping or squirming one bit. The EBR 1190RX is the bike that Erik Buell wanted the 1125R to be back in 2008, but the H-D brass said no. The 1125R was actually his concept for a sport-touring bike, so I can imagine how awesome an 1190RX is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2t3Yp9Onv4






 
Here's my take. I have a dealer that sells the EBR, KTM RC8R, Panigale and MV F4.

All were sitting next to one another. The issue is design and the way they look next to one another. I am biased of course, but the Pani and MV win hands down. The RC8R is also very trick and cool, but starting to look dated. The EBR looks like a Chinese bike.

Take a close look. I took a ton of pics. If you are spending north of $18k, you deserve components, fit and finish at a top level and just plain kick ass style.

I want the EBR to succeed. I do. I love the story, love Erik's vision and love the passion with everything they are doing.

But simple things like an inch longer lower shock bolt that looked like they rummaged around in a Folgers can for it, no black vinyl at the bottom of the windscreen to cover the exposed electronics behind the dash, thick rubber washers that raise the fairing bolts 1/8" above the fairing panels, exposed clip washers UNDER and exposed at the tail under the seat.

Not to mention the components. That rear shock looks like a 1995 CBR600F3 rear shock the way it has stepped preload adjustment, etc. Decals that show the creases where applied, etc.

It just doesn't have the fit and finish of an equally priced bike. These tests are silly. Especially from comic books that get paid. Wait until RRW does a test and see. I can promise that they won't be .10 slower on the EBR. That gap will be much greater.

What I do get out of the article is that they are essentially justifying the short comings of the EBR... That's all cool and it certainly is awesome they are supporting the brand as it is great to see a US brand out there. But, they have to be truthful. How does it stack up? If I were to sit them all out in a row and have a focus group look and judge, they aren't picking the EBR high. Then base the performance numbers and you'll see it is not very good. Now if this were stacked against the 1098, maybe we have a fight. It just isn't...

Hate to be a downer. I really do. I want success. But you cannot argue the pure performance and ability of the 1199. It just doesn't stack up.
 
JeffD said:
Why are some of you so butt-hurt that Cycle World compared the 1199 to the 1190RX? The companies are comparable as they point out that racing is ingrained in the DNA of both companies. The big point here is that infinitesimal EBR has put out a bike that is actually close to the performance of an 1199.

As many of you are so drunk on the Ducati Kool-Aid, I was once drunk on the Buell Kool-Aid. I've owned 3 Buells and they were exceptional experiences. My favorites were a 2005 XB9SX Lightning and a 2009 1125R. The 1125R in particular was an amazing bike. The Buell trademark super-steep steering geometry just flat works, providing detailed feedback on the front wheel and boosting confidence. The Zero Torsional Load (ZTL) perimeter brake system works as advertised and it has been in use since 2004 on many Buell models. Furthermore it was further developed and proven in the heat of battle by winning the 2009 AMA Pro Daytona Sportbike Championship with Danny Eslick on the 1125R.

Sure, that bike had a ridiculous displacement advantage over the 600cc inline-4s, but it didn't win Daytona and it wouldn't have won at Mid-Ohio or Heartland Park if it didn't handle or brake well. The 1125R is to this date, the best streetbike I've owned in over 23 years of doing this. The Buell-designed, Rotax Built twin delivers loads of mid-range torque while still having a nice bump up top, the Showa suspension was well-damped and ideally calibrated for fast road riding. The XB9SX was just simply a hoot to ride. With a crazy loud exhaust it had a short, but lively powerband and the stubby little bike would turn inside of just about anything.

Here is a video of a friend on a 2005 R1 following me on my 1125R up and down Blood Mountain in north Georgia. On the way back up the mountain (skip to 5:38 for when it gets good on the way back up) he was spinning up in a few places to keep up. I was only riding at about 75%, my max comfortable pace for the street, the Dunlop Q2s not slipping or squirming one bit. The EBR 1190RX is the bike that Erik Buell wanted the 1125R to be back in 2008, but the H-D brass said no. The 1125R was actually his concept for a sport-touring bike, so I can imagine how awesome an 1190RX is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2t3Yp9Onv4






Click to expand...

No offense, man, but if you are comparing your buddy and he's on an R1 fighting to keep up with you on the Buell, it is because you are a better rider. Simple math. I've ridden an 1125R at a very hard pace at Mid-Ohio. It isn't going to be running a faster time than an R1 stock to stock. Just isn't going to happen. Sorry. These buddy vids and stuff are great, but you can only test the same rider on the two bikes and take a day to test and see the results. It's math. The R1 isn't getting beat and it is by far the oldest and heaviest liter bike out there...
 
Red Dawn said:
No offense, man, but if you are comparing your buddy and he's on an R1 fighting to keep up with you on the Buell, it is because you are a better rider. Simple math. I've ridden an 1125R at a very hard pace at Mid-Ohio. It isn't going to be running a faster time than an R1 stock to stock. Just isn't going to happen. Sorry. These buddy vids and stuff are great, but you can only test the same rider on the two bikes and take a day to test and see the results. It's math. The R1 isn't getting beat and it is by far the oldest and heaviest liter bike out there...
Click to expand...

My post wasn't meant to compare the bikes, just to show that it's definitely not a dog, especially in sporting street situations where you're surely not riding at 100%. I specifically said the 1125R was the best street bike I've ever owned, mainly because of its ergonomics, motor and chassis/suspension characteristics. I did take it to my local track, and I was 4-5 seconds off the pace of my Crossplane R1 and MV Agusta F4 1000R. It was overwhelmed at the track in stock form. That's why I mentioned how well it did in AMA Pro Racing when set up correctly.

All of this is to say that Erik Buell/EBR definitely know how to build a great handling motorcycle, and now that he's free from the corporate reins of H-D, and actually has some funding (the Hero India investment came after the 1190RS/RX was already developed), it can only get better from here. Even though they're falling on their face in WSBK, you can just imagine what they're learning that will make it into the next version.

That they came so close to the 1199 in performance already is simply amazing given the disparity of resources (every reviewer that was at the Jennings GP, Florida bike launch was duly impressed). Cycle World are avowed Buell fanatics, and I appreciated their first comparison against a top-level bike like our beloved 1199. Like others have said, I'm not selling my 1199 to get an 1190RX, but I'm definitely watching EBR intently.
 
The Buell in your last 2 pics is the one I rode. Eye opening experience. I really liked it. Easy to ride, supper comfortable. Zero weight on wrists, but you're not completely up right either.

It was a cool looking naked bike. Not fast at all. So yeah, it was perfect for those relaxed 70% rides. Just enough to get a thrill. I wished it had longer wheel base, normal brakes, 90 degree vtwin, and no Harley transmission. Really, I'd prefer a Ducati Monster or Hypermotard, if either of those were as comfortable.

Although, the oddness of the Harley engine, kinda made the bike fun.
 
Last edited:
Buliwyf said:
The Buell in your last 2 pics is the one I rode. Eye opening experience. I really liked it. Easy to ride, supper comfortable. Zero weight on wrists, but you're not completely up right either.

It was a cool looking naked bike. Not fast at all. I wished it had longer wheel base, normal brakes, 90 degree vtwin, and no Harley transmission.

Although, the oddness of the Harley engine, kinda made the bike fun.
Click to expand...

I wish I had video of that bike. I had a D&D exhaust on it (of all things), and it just sounded great. It sounded like a built Harley at idle, but with the Buell heads and cams it was awesome at full throttle and had great torque. Only had about 80 rwhp but the torque curve was broad and it could really cover some ground. The handling was the best part.

Here are some other pictures of it, I think I know where MV Agusta got their inspiration for the Dragster 800 ;)





 

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