FREE Suspension Setup advice from an expert

Compression and rebound.

I’m guessing 46 is a typo, likely 4 or 6.


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Thanks, I tought it was Compression and Rebound but 46 wasn't possible, yeah problably 4 or 6. That's are the factorysettings then?

315 mm stretched on a shock stretcher which is probably 314 mm eye to eye.

(compression) C46, (rebound) R6 --> Those are valving specs. NOT a typo

roadracerx said:

315 mm stretched on a shock stretcher which is probably 314 mm eye to eye.

(compression) C46, (rebound) R6 --> Those are valving specs. NOT a typo

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Thanks, roadracerx , I'll set it to 314mm. I'm not familiar with valvespecs. The shock is going to be serviced , so changing something else now would be a good time. Do I need too?

@rikkie07 that's a difficult question to answer. It all depends on your pace, the track you ride and what you are looking for from the bike. In my experience no one really needs the rebound side changed but every once in a while the compression side may be too stiff or too soft. There is crossover with valving so a setting of 12 clicks out on R6 may give the rider a similar experience if they had R7 at 15 clicks out. There isn't a good or bad valving spec just a definition from Ohlins. When the spec card says R6, for example, what they are describing is a pre-defined set of washers that comprise of what they define as R6. There are many different definitions each with their own unique name, for example: R4, R5, R6, R7, etc.

A valving spec is really quite simple. It is a set of washers each of which having a diameter and thickness stacked from largest to smallest. In the case of THIS shock it has R6 which is defined as the following shims in diameter 22, 20, 18, 16, 14 and 12 mm all of which are of type 01425 and a 10 mm clamping shim of type 01449.

There are 25 different shims with different thickness and diameter, see pic

roadracerx said:

@rikkie07 that's a difficult question to answer. It all depends on your pace, the track you ride and what you are looking for from the bike. In my experience no one really needs the rebound side changed but every once in a while the compression side may be too stiff or too soft. There is crossover with valving so a setting of 12 clicks out on R6 may give the rider a similar experience if they had R7 at 15 clicks out. There isn't a good or bad valving spec just a definition from Ohlins. When the spec card says R6, for example, what they are describing is a pre-defined set of washers that comprise of what they define as R6. There are many different definitions each with their own unique name, for example: R4, R5, R6, R7, etc.

A valving spec is really quite simple. It is a set of washers each of which having a diameter and thickness stacked from largest to smallest. In the case of THIS shock it has R6 which is defined as the following shims in diameter 22, 20, 18, 16, 14 and 12 mm all of which are of type 01425 and a 10 mm clamping shim of type 01449.

There are 25 different shims with different thickness and diameter, see pic

Click to expand...

That’s good to know, I was wondering what you meant by valving settings.

Now I’m interested to know about fork design, specifically how compression and rebound legs work independently and have no effect on each other.


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roadracerx said:

@rikkie07 that's a difficult question to answer. It all depends on your pace, the track you ride and what you are looking for from the bike. In my experience no one really needs the rebound side changed but every once in a while the compression side may be too stiff or too soft. There is crossover with valving so a setting of 12 clicks out on R6 may give the rider a similar experience if they had R7 at 15 clicks out. There isn't a good or bad valving spec just a definition from Ohlins. When the spec card says R6, for example, what they are describing is a pre-defined set of washers that comprise of what they define as R6. There are many different definitions each with their own unique name, for example: R4, R5, R6, R7, etc.

A valving spec is really quite simple. It is a set of washers each of which having a diameter and thickness stacked from largest to smallest. In the case of THIS shock it has R6 which is defined as the following shims in diameter 22, 20, 18, 16, 14 and 12 mm all of which are of type 01425 and a 10 mm clamping shim of type 01449.

There are 25 different shims with different thickness and diameter, see pic

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed answer. I have an idea how a schock is assembled and know of shimstacks but not that detailed. I'll stay with the standard setting

@Alkhater the separate function fork works much the same as forks with both compression and rebound in each side. There are two reasons to separate. 1.) It is less expensive to produce 2.) It is easier to make a change.

Because the fork is fixed at both ends, the triple clamp and axle, there is no issue with performance.

Make sense? If not, ask me what you are curious about and I will try to answer.

roadracerx, i'm still thinking of changing the linkrods because it's an easy and cheap mod. Ducati changed it on the 2020 model for a reason, do you know why?
What could be the benefit of doing this?

A shorter link raises the rear, a longer one the opposite. These can be used on track to move the window in which the shock works. I would not change them. These part numbers are different from 2019 to 2020 but this likely has something to do with the change in swingarm pivot.

rikkie07 said:

roadracerx, i'm still thinking of changing the linkrods because it's an easy and cheap mod. Ducati changed it on the 2020 model for a reason, do you know why?
What could be the benefit of doing this?

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@bp_SFV4 thanks for sharing that.

@rikkie07 simply changing one thing like the link rods won't get the results you were hoping for. Case in point, I know a guy that has been struggling to get his V4 to work like a 2019-2020 V4R and is having shock pumping issues. The V4R has lots of different parts including the top mount, swingarm, swingarm pivot, etc. Without seeing the bike in person and being able to measure certain things it is almost impossible to sort a bike remotely with cherry-picked parts from different versions of the bike.

roadracerx said:

@bp_SFV4 thanks for sharing that.

@rikkie07 simply changing one thing like the link rods won't get the results you were hoping for. Case in point, I know a guy that has been struggling to get his V4 to work like a 2019-2020 V4R and is having shock pumping issues. The V4R has lots of different parts including the top mount, swingarm, swingarm pivot, etc. Without seeing the bike in person and being able to measure certain things it is almost impossible to sort a bike remotely with cherry-picked parts from different versions of the bike.

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Thanks, I had part of that info but not all, I understand that. But to get the basic same geometry like the 2020 that looks quite easy , just put the forks at the same height in the tripple clamp (at the moment mine are flush) and in the rear 2mm on the shock and the 2020 linkrods and the geometry is OK. The question of the softer springs I think depends on the use and the sag figures you want. I think you suggested free sag F: 30mm and R: 10-15mm and driver sag F: 40mm and R: 30mm. I understand what they want to do with the higher preload and the softer spring (softer suspension deeper in the travel, , important on lean angle) and that's why I was thinking maybe my shock is 100Nm, that's too much. But I get those sagfigures in the front and the rear so that looks OK, but in the rear the hydraulic adjuster is just 2 turns in, that means to me that I could do with a softer spring and use some more preload, is that correct? I thought the trick is to get your springs as soft as possible, because the load the spring absorbs the tire doesn't need too. Am I making sense or just rubbish?

No @rikkie07 the 2020 geometry has a different swingarm pivot.

roadracerx said:

No @rikkie07 the 2020 geometry has a different swingarm pivot.

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Thanks, roadracerx, do you know how much? On the 2022 it's not a 'secret' , you can read that in Ducati's presentation they raised it 4mm. I didn't find that info on 2020 model anywhere. What do you think of my springrate, that's still OK? Shock is in the workshop for service now so this would be a good time if it's need changing. Thanks for all the info.

@rikkie07 so what is funny is the 2022 V4 swingarm pivot is now the same height as the 2019-2020 V4R as it comes stock.

Spring rate is determined by what your bike and rider sag are. Do you have that info? You can get the correct rider sag of 30 mm with two different springs but the bike sag will tell you if you have the correct spring. For example, if you measure and find that the bike sag is more than the recommended range of 12-15 mm then the spring is too soft and the opposite if that bike sag measurement is less than the recommended range.

roadracerx said:

@rikkie07 so what is funny is the 2022 V4 swingarm pivot is now the same height as the 2019-2020 V4R as it comes stock.

Spring rate is determined by what your bike and rider sag are. Do you have that info? You can get the correct rider sag of 30 mm with two different springs but the bike sag will tell you if you have the correct spring. For example, if you measure and find that the bike sag is more than the recommended range of 12-15 mm then the spring is too soft and the opposite if that bike sag measurement is less than the recommended range.

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My apology in advance if this has been asked and answered, but what is your response to people who say “you know, racers don’t measure sag at all when setting up their bikes - they choose spring rates by feel and lap time.”

I ask because I have been told this by more than one racer when discussing suspension setup.

Thanks!

roadracerx said:

@rikkie07 so what is funny is the 2022 V4 swingarm pivot is now the same height as the 2019-2020 V4R as it comes stock.

Spring rate is determined by what your bike and rider sag are. Do you have that info? You can get the correct rider sag of 30 mm with two different springs but the bike sag will tell you if you have the correct spring. For example, if you measure and find that the bike sag is more than the recommended range of 12-15 mm then the spring is too soft and the opposite if that bike sag measurement is less than the recommended range.

Click to expand...

OK, thanks, these figures are from last year (shock is out now) Front: 6 turns preload then freesag= 29mm, ridersag= 36mm; on the rear: preload 3 turns (hydr. adj.) freesag= 16mm and ridersag= 29mm. This is as close as i come to your recommended sagnumbers. Not that bad I think, will measure them again when shock is back and shocklenght is changed to 314mm.

craig bush said:

My apology in advance if this has been asked and answered, but what is your response to people who say “you know, racers don’t measure sag at all when setting up their bikes - they choose spring rates by feel and lap time.”

I ask because I have been told this by more than one racer when discussing suspension setup.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I laugh and walk away....

Race teams use chassis analysis software to set up bikes and those softwares DO take sag into account which is a by-product of preload on a spring.

Sag is a measurement designed to get the rider in the middle third of the stroke so the suspension can work at its best. When a rider wants something different from what the team decides is the "ideal" setup there is conflict because teams think their bike is awesome, right?!

Speed is a consequence of confidence. A rider builds confidence when the bike responds in an expected way. Not all riders want or need the same thing but setting sag, both bike and rider, ALWAYS works.

Why would Ohlins recommend one check and set sag if it didn't matter?

Why would Fox recommend the same on their mountain bike suspension if it didn't matter?

The reason is simple. These manufacturers want you to have a good experience with their products.

Race teams have access to tools the average Joe does not like MotoSpec or SusPact. Also race teams have experience gained from many tracks and riders and they have a window in which they know the bike will work. They are making an educated guess on what they consider to be a bike that will handle well based on those tools and their experience. Most of the time the math is correct and I will roll the bike out of the truck and not need to make any changes at the track, sometimes, however, a small change is needed that makes all the difference and I can tell you from personal experience that my ass and hands do feel things that the math doesn't explain.

rikkie07 said:

OK, thanks, these figures are from last year (shock is out now) Front: 6 turns preload then freesag= 29mm, ridersag= 36mm; on the rear: preload 3 turns (hydr. adj.) freesag= 16mm and ridersag= 29mm. This is as close as i come to your recommended sagnumbers. Not that bad I think, will measure them again when shock is back and shocklenght is changed to 314mm.

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Looks like your springs may be too soft front and rear. The front rider sag should be closer to 40 while the bike sag between 25-30. Rear may be fine. Are you doing an average of the second and third measurements both front and rear?

I really need to make a video of this....