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roadracerx said:
@Wito you likely have the forks placed in the clamps at the wrong height to make 312+ mm shock length work. Increasing the gearing ratio absolutely does make the bike more peaky. You may not have an issue with that but it is not an opinion.
Click to expand...

Is it your view that essentially stock geometry is perfect and the bike will work best in all circumstances and for all people at stock geometries?

I’m just curious on your approach, as unless I understand incorrectly the math approach you are taking seems to be to reconfigure the bike back to stock geometry as a solution to all handling problems?

Not in any way being critical just trying to understand approach and methodology.
 
@roadracerx why would stock forks placement (almost flush with top triple clamps) and factory shock length (312) be wrong? Yes - shorter gear ratio = more peaky
 
Wito said:
@roadracerx why would stock forks placement (almost flush with top triple clamps) and factory shock length (312) be wrong? Yes - shorter gear ratio = more peaky
Click to expand...
Are you running the oem Showa forks? If so, are they stock or have an insert? If they have an insert, which one and was the stroke changed?

Can't give away all my secrets but flattening the swingarm angle isn't the preferred approach to getting the bike to turn better or load the tires any better. What rubber are you running?
 
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Steven31371 said:
Is it your view that essentially stock geometry is perfect and the bike will work best in all circumstances and for all people at stock geometries?

I’m just curious on your approach, as unless I understand incorrectly the math approach you are taking seems to be to reconfigure the bike back to stock geometry as a solution to all handling problems?

Not in any way being critical just trying to understand approach and methodology.
Click to expand...
Stock geometry works pretty darn well.

Ducati does not make a bike that handles poorly.

ALL BIKES need the bike and rider sag checked, period. There is a generally acceptable range in which to work that has been detailed above, this ALWAYS works.

When a customer buys a bike who isn't within the 170-190 lbs range they need different springs, no way around that.

Often what I see is people changing the bike with tires, gearing, chain length, exhaust, mapping, throttles, clutches and almost always they make the bike harder to ride.

Sure settings could be altered to get something potentially better but I started this thread to help people and that is exactly what is accomplished here.

To solve problems you have to start with a KNOWN. I solve problems based on facts. Stock geometry, when accounted for changes will work for everyone, guaranteed.

Getting the bike back to a known geometry is harder than you might think with the multitude of changes folks make and providing solutions is more difficult than you might guess without a baseline.
 
Wito said:
@roadracerx why would stock forks placement (almost flush with top triple clamps) and factory shock length (312) be wrong? Yes - shorter gear ratio = more
Click to expand...
roadracerx said:
Stock geometry works pretty darn well.

Ducati does not make a bike that handles poorly.

ALL BIKES need the bike and rider sag checked, period. There is a generally acceptable range in which to work that has been detailed above, this ALWAYS works.

When a customer buys a bike who isn't within the 170-190 lbs range they need different springs, no way around that.

Often what I see is people changing the bike with tires, gearing, chain length, exhaust, mapping, throttles, clutches and almost always they make the bike harder to ride.

Sure settings could be altered to get something potentially better but I started this thread to help people and that is exactly what is accomplished here.

To solve problems you have to start with a KNOWN. I solve problems based on facts. Stock geometry, when accounted for changes will work for everyone, guaranteed.

Getting the bike back to a known geometry is harder than you might think with the multitude of changes folks make and providing solutions is more difficult than you might guess without a baseline.
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable but then the question becomes: ‘which stock geometry’?

Because it seems like every year Ducati updates the geometry to make it better and often more track oriented…so when you work on older bikes are you updating to the geometry of that year or the newer geometry that Ducati comes out with on later models that they claim is better?

Also the trend as time goes by seems to be that stock geometry was more street focused several years ago while becoming more track focused in the last two years…so if you have a 3 year old bike, that you track, would a better starting point be the geometries of the 2022 and 2023 bikes?
 
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Steven31371 said:
Sounds reasonable but then the question becomes: ‘which stock geometry’?

Because it seems like every year Ducati updates the geometry to make it better and often more track oriented…so when you work on older bikes are you updating to the geometry of that year or the newer geometry that Ducati comes out with on later models that they claim is better?

Also the trend as time goes by seems to be that stock geometry was more street focused several years ago while becoming more track focused in the last two years…so if you have a 3 year old bike, that you track, would a better starting point be the geometries of the 2022 and 2023 bikes?
Click to expand...

Ducati has always made track-capable bikes. That being said, ALL track-focused bikes have some general-accepted ideals, for example, about 100 mm of trail. A 1098/1198 had triple clamps that only allowed for about 94 mm of trail, hence the 30 mm clamps which were 6 mm less than stock. The 2012 Panigale platform no longer had this issue of too little trail. There are generally accepted swingarm angles, swingarm lengths, etc.

The most significant changes to the V4 Panigale platform have been swingarm pivot. Most as in 95 out of 100 riders can't tell the difference between a 2018 and a 2022 bike, mostly because they change the bike every time they are riding it or because they just don't ride enough.

I deal with solving problems and those problems are unique to each rider. The biggest mistake tuners make is giving the same settings to every rider. One must take into account the mods, the rider, their skill level and fitness then provide a setup that works for that bike and rider. Speed and a reduction in laptime are a direct result of confidence in the bike but that can only happen through seat time and a solid baseline.
 
Paul G said:
"Better" is used liberally in the marketing material but what that means is not so clearcut.
Click to expand...

Ducati and Porsche are MASTERS at this....

I love this new claim of +7 hp for the 2023 V4R vs 2019 V4R.

3.5 hp from "special oil". Local dealer told me they have not been able to get the standard 15w50 Ducati/Shell oil for MONTHS! So this special oil will be even more difficult to get.

I had a customer who wanted the Termignoni SBK under-tail exhaust on his 2019 V4R. I talked him into a back-to-back dyno run of his full titanium Akrapovic with the EVO2 slicks mapping vs. Termis full SBK stainless exhaust which uses the stock horizontal header and their UP MAP SBK map....guess what happened??? +6 ft/lbs in the mid-range and +4 hp on top OVER the Akrapovic!!! It did weigh more though...

I bet the 2023 "better" V4R produces the same hp and torque as the 2019 bike in stock trim or even less due to Euro5 and if you get the "special oil" and same under seat exhaust the 2019 vs. 2023 bike is maybe 1-2 hp different from each other.
 
Bringing old thread back: I just acquired a stock 2016 Panegale R. I’m about 230 lbs fully suited … carry my weight up high. I feel like the bike wants fall over in tight slow turns… to me it feels like my front sag is off as in too much. Can you recommend a set up for me? I do mostly street riding with very occasional track… I have a feeling that a new set front springs is in my future.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Matt
 
@Mr.duc Hi Matt, 230 lbs is a bit much for stock springs. Was the bike stock when you acquired it? What springs are currently installed?
 
This thread breaks my mind, darn its complicated, but I get the geometry. I've been road riding 37 years and am always way faster than others whilst being on lesser machinery. But I will be trying these suggestions so many many thanks for sharing.

I have:

2013 848EVO RC (probably IV) ... had the SC's but when they got a little old they tended to let go (for me) in spectacular fashion
2020 MTS1260S AngelGT
2023 SFV2 RCIV's

I'm 165lbs full fed, hydrated and geared .. if I read correctly everything now needs new springs :eek:, except maybe the MTS because my wife and the baggage make up the extra😜

I've known sag is super important for decades but have buried my head in the sand for too long, my bad

I'm a front end rider.

I did learn to do great rear end drifts hard on the front brakes into selected corners on my old 2001 750SS that made me quicker (ala MotoGP ... but pathetic by comparison). but haven't remastered this skill on any of my newer bikes. I always felt the 848 to be unwilling in this regard, but on reflection this might just have been setup all along

Because I'm mortal (and older) I like tires that squirm before letting go, so my brain has sufficient time to adjust as required

I detect air pressure issues when I ride a bike, but have found I cannot reliably pick if it's front or rear that's low. However I always run far too high according to this thread, I have always run higher in the rear as per every manual. e.g. the SFV2 manual says 33.36F/36.26R, what's the difference ? I have found going low in the rear tends to slow the tip in too much, I'm guessing it pays some dividends in exit ?

Any comments welcome. Either way I believe I need to finally visit a specialist to get there
 
Hey Roadracerx, I'm changing tyres from Pirelli too Bridgestone. The rearwheeldiameter is smaller so the bike will sit a little lower in the back. Do I need too compensate that by adjusting the schocklenght to get the same rideheight again?
Changing the schocklenght (is 312mm now) also changes the swingarmangle, what's the best thing too do? Front is Showa and forks are flush.
 
poorly said:
This thread breaks my mind, darn its complicated, but I get the geometry. I've been road riding 37 years and am always way faster than others whilst being on lesser machinery. But I will be trying these suggestions so many many thanks for sharing.

I have:

2013 848EVO RC (probably IV) ... had the SC's but when they got a little old they tended to let go (for me) in spectacular fashion
2020 MTS1260S AngelGT
2023 SFV2 RCIV's

I'm 165lbs full fed, hydrated and geared .. if I read correctly everything now needs new springs :eek:, except maybe the MTS because my wife and the baggage make up the extra😜

I've known sag is super important for decades but have buried my head in the sand for too long, my bad

I'm a front end rider.

I did learn to do great rear end drifts hard on the front brakes into selected corners on my old 2001 750SS that made me quicker (ala MotoGP ... but pathetic by comparison). but haven't remastered this skill on any of my newer bikes. I always felt the 848 to be unwilling in this regard, but on reflection this might just have been setup all along

Because I'm mortal (and older) I like tires that squirm before letting go, so my brain has sufficient time to adjust as required

I detect air pressure issues when I ride a bike, but have found I cannot reliably pick if it's front or rear that's low. However I always run far too high according to this thread, I have always run higher in the rear as per every manual. e.g. the SFV2 manual says 33.36F/36.26R, what's the difference ? I have found going low in the rear tends to slow the tip in too much, I'm guessing it pays some dividends in exit ?

Any comments welcome. Either way I believe I need to finally visit a specialist to get there
Click to expand...

If I can offer a bit of advice, the basics of setup are well known. I suggest reading these two articles before going any further especially if sag hasnt been drawn to attention after 37 years

All About Geometry

Rake, trail, wheelbase, center of gravity, anti-squat, and so on are all important measurements of a motorcycle's geometry. What do they all mean?
www.cycleworld.com www.cycleworld.com
www.cycleworld.com

The Perfect Setup

Make adjustments and improve your bike's handling one step at a time for the perfect setup.
www.cycleworld.com www.cycleworld.com

You can be a fast rider, but your fundamentals can be wrong so its impossible to progress further and only training with a good coach can help you understand where you are at, even world champions have coaches! If you are touring or carrying a passenger more pressure in the rear, otherwise for sports riding its usually a few psi lower and on track a lot lower (depending on tires)
 
@roadracerx I’d appreciate a basic setup starting point and hope I provide enough information.

I have a base V4 with FKR 115 carts. and DU 416 shock. Currently installed with the supplied springs… 9.5(f) and 95(r) N/mm.

I haven’t ridden the bike at pace yet or on track so I’m not entirely sure on feeling/feedback…

Front doesn’t seem bad, I’m using a lot of the stroke while braking verified by travel indicator.

Rear does seem too stiff for my weight.

I weigh 65kg or 145lbs with gear, or even slightly less.

Also have a pair of 9 N/mm fork springs, 75 and 80 N/mm shock springs to try.

-

Concerning pace… I’m not very fast. I’m about 20 seconds off of WSBK pace at Lusail but that’s on a factory SF V4S with stock tires. 2’20” (my experience is 2 track days on 600RR many years ago and 3 track days on the SF). But I hope to pick up the pace.

I’m also going on factory supercorsas with the Panigale but plan to move to slicks.


Any basic setup advice would be appreciated… fork position, air gap, shock length etc and I’d be happy to provide any additional info if needed. TIA
 
Alkhater said:
@roadracerx I’d appreciate a basic setup starting point and hope I provide enough information.

I have a base V4 with FKR 115 carts. and DU 416 shock. Currently installed with the supplied springs… 9.5(f) and 95(r) N/mm.

I haven’t ridden the bike at pace yet or on track so I’m not entirely sure on feeling/feedback…

Front doesn’t seem bad, I’m using a lot of the stroke while braking verified by travel indicator.

Rear does seem too stiff for my weight.

I weigh 65kg or 145lbs with gear, or even slightly less.

Also have a pair of 9 N/mm fork springs, 75 and 80 N/mm shock springs to try.

-

Concerning pace… I’m not very fast. I’m about 20 seconds off of WSBK pace at Lusail but that’s on a factory SF V4S with stock tires. 2’20” (my experience is 2 track days on 600RR many years ago and 3 track days on the SF). But I hope to pick up the pace.

I’m also going on factory supercorsas with the Panigale but plan to move to slicks.


Any basic setup advice would be appreciated… fork position, air gap, shock length etc and I’d be happy to provide any additional info if needed. TIA
Click to expand...
I’m about same weight as you. Roadracer rec’d 8.5/9 Nm spring on front. Put the 9 on the rebound side.

I’d try the 8 Nm rear spring. I have the stock 8.5 on my V4S and it’s a little too firm. 9.5 is definitely too much spring.
 
@roadracerx Hi! I've been following this thread trying to learn a bit - Love it! Thank you.
I was lucky enough to have an Öhlins factory guy set up my bike at WDW and it was quite good, and didn't write down the settings. <facepalm>
I just had a service done and they set it back to DEFAULT, hard as a brick. I could cry. I have a track day at Mugello on Monday.
Do you have a basic DES-custom fixed suspension settings to start with for track for a 2020 V4S? Where do I start?
I'm 6'2" 170lbs without gear. I'm running around 2:10" laps Mugello with Pirelli SC2 slicks. Shock oil hasn't been changed with 11k miles.
Thanks millions!
 
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@roadracerx I wonder if I can pick your brains for the Ducati XDiavel.

It's a bit of a funky setup as the front has 120mm of travel but a 30deg rake and only about 95mm of travel at the back with a fairly aggressive motion ratio (1.68:1 @ rider sag) with very little progression (1.7:1 to 1.6:1) plus's the rediculoisly high unsprung mass (wheel is 25kg).

What sort of wheelrates would you target for fast street use and a single rider?

The stock springs are:
Front(All) - 7.8 N/mm (21 N/mm wheel rate)
Rear(16-18) - progressive 65->90?? N/mm (23 N/mm wheel rate for soft portion)
Rear(19-23) - progressive 50->90?? N/mm (18 N/mm wheel rate for soft portion)

The Ohlins replacement shock somes with an 80 N/mm spring which puts the wheelrate at 28N/mm with 12mm static / 30mm rider sag for my 75kg with 15mm preload.

No matter what I do to the rear in terms of damping, you can feel it's imbalanced rear to front.

I'm going to rebuild the shock with a longer shaft to get me 110mm rear wheel travel to thinking of dropping down to a spring in the 60N/mm to 70N/mm spring with 22mm preload that gets me to:

11mm static / 33mm rider @23 N/mm

ASK - Does this make sense to target a more even front/rear wheelrate or is this a crazy change to make for such a torquey bike?

Any other advice for this bike would be greatly appreciated!
 
Vbreeze said:
@roadracerx Hi! I've been following this thread trying to learn a bit - Love it! Thank you.
I was lucky enough to have an Öhlins factory guy set up my bike at WDW and it was quite good, and didn't write down the settings. <facepalm>
I just had a service done and they set it back to DEFAULT, hard as a brick. I could cry. I have a track day at Mugello on Monday.
Do you have a basic DES-custom fixed suspension settings to start with for track for a 2020 V4S? Where do I start?
I'm 6'2" 170lbs without gear. I'm running around 2:10" laps Mugello with Pirelli SC2 slicks. Shock oil hasn't been changed with 11k miles.
Thanks millions!
Click to expand...

Every rider's needs are different so NO I don't really have a basic setup I give all riders. You mentioned it was "hard as a brick"....is this your experience riding on the street? What mode are you in? What tire pressures are you running? What tires are you running when you experienced this? Was the preload changed from your setup to after service? Because the V4S sets damping electronically I am guessing the preload on the fork was set to a different setting from the Ohlins tech but I am guessing here so answer those questions and I will try to help you...
 

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