Hey mark419ny and whitepani

Either of those last two photos would add soooo much more visual appeal to the bike. How BMW has overlooked such a simple thing is beyond me. And let's not go saying it's for aerodynamic reasons because the size and shape of the fairing itself would remain exactly the same, thus not affecting aerodynamics in any way.

it's not only an ugly bike, but it rides like a gixxer compared to the Pani.......which most people prefer....but i prefer a more asymmetrical ride in terms of performance i guess since i'm not trying to win races and enjoy a wild high-powered twin experience over a sewing-machine-like beemer....to each his own....

and mark did admit earlier before editing his original post that if money was no object he'd ride the pani more -- i believe that said it all but he was quick to delete that little qualification...

I highly doubt money is an issue for him in the first place. At least not enough so to not be able to justify any cost issues associated with Ducati bikes. He's just more pro BMW than anti Ducati, even with all his experienced problems with the Italian.

VAST said:

it's not only an ugly bike, but it rides like a gixxer compared to the Pani.......which most people prefer....but i prefer a more asymmetrical ride in terms of performance i guess since i'm not trying to win races and enjoy a wild high-powered twin experience over a sewing-machine-like beemer....to each his own....

and mark did admit earlier before editing his original post that if money was no object he'd ride the pani more -- i believe that said it all but he was quick to delete that little qualification...

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what i said was if i was buying a bike with my money i would buy the bmw everyday and twice on sunday.

if a bike were giving to me i would take the pani. why not i didnt pay for it

i never said i didnt like the looks of the 1199 .

you guys make me laugh. you throw up one picture the same picture of the front of the hp4 and thats it. how many have actually seen the thing in person? the bike is far from ugly. its not as nice looking as the panigale. every single aspect other than looks the bmw smokes the 1199. here is a interesting thing
We own (2) 1199's that have been modified extensively (ECU tuning, real Corsa Exhaust, thinner gaskets, etc) and our modified HP4 will walk away from the Ducati in every gear.

The 1199 makes 194 RWHP and the BMW HP4 makes 215 RWHP for the same amount of work.....

im out of this post. i wasnt going to say a word because the hp4 is far superior to the 1199 but i was asked. lastly was out in princton nj 2 hp4 one 1199 and guess what hp4 got the most attention.

mark419ny said:

im out of this post. i wasnt going to say a word because the hp4 is far superior to the 1199 but i was asked. lastly was out in princton nj 2 hp4 one 1199 and guess what hp4 got the most attention.

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is that part of the ride? the attention ¿ ¿ ¿ and what do most people have??? good taste??? lol! as they gorge themselves on McD's and Starfux....


funny....

First off, congrats Mark. Having the ability to buy what you want is the best feeling in the world. I'll be picking up my F3 800 as soon as I get back from Dubai. The BMW is a great bike, and to some it's looks great. Like many said on here, the Panigale is the best looking, no argument there. But, for anyone to say the bmw kills the Panigale in performance, has to look at so many factors. For example, the S1000rr has been in the streets and racing since 2009. So, that's 5 years of development before they dropped the HP4. With all that development, I would expect BMW to have a more refined bike. Now, if you take a look at most of these magazine comparisons with top level riders on board, they turn quicker lap times on the 1199. That's what I'm interested in. Yeah, the hp4 is faster in a straight line, quicker 1/4 mile, more hp, but when it's time to hit the track, the 1199 comes out on top. Most of the other things the journalists appreciate on the hp4 is subjective ...., like comfort, soft seat, blah blah blah. I say, ride what you want. I can't wait until we can tangle on the track. VIR next year, Wera sounds good to me. I'm happy for you my friend, you won't get any bashing from me. I say, let's ride.

mark419ny said:

you guys make me laugh. you throw up one picture the same picture of the front of the hp4 and thats it. how many have actually seen the thing in person? the bike is far from ugly. its not as nice looking as the panigale. every single aspect other than looks the bmw smokes the 1199. here is a interesting thing
We own (2) 1199's that have been modified extensively (ECU tuning, real Corsa Exhaust, thinner gaskets, etc) and our modified HP4 will walk away from the Ducati in every gear.

The 1199 makes 194 RWHP and the BMW HP4 makes 215 RWHP for the same amount of work.....

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I have not ridden the HP4. I have only seen it at the local dealer (they carry Triumph, Ducati, and BMW). It looks impressive sitting in the showroom. But it always shocks me when I see the front. That is the only thing that I would change on it. Reason why I posted those photos with the front end modified.

I love blue, so seeing all that blue and carbon fiber bits is great.

But still, I am going with the Panigale because it is the one that I want. In my case, the BMW was never on the option list for me.

Like I mentioned before, you have the choice of riding either one, which is great. Enjoy them in good health and keep posting away. It is all good.

Congrats Mark - and thanks for the review. I have rode the HP4 a few times and it is an awesome bike. Totally two different bikes. The Ducati feels more like a true race bike no matter where you ride it via the streets or the track. The bike is much happier on the track due to the inherent power curve.

The plus for the HP4 on the streets it feels more of a street bike than a race bike in terms of comfort, ergos, and handling. On the track it quickly transform to a race bike.

Still not sold on the DDC for the track it will a few years before anyone perfect it. The day they perfect it you will see it being used in WSBK/MotoGP. Same goes for the DES for Ducati.

Love both bikes

I love blue, so seeing all that blue and carbon fiber bits is great.

But still, I am going with the Panigale because it is the one that I want. In my case, the BMW was never on the option list for me.

Like I mentioned before, you have the choice of riding either one, which is great. Enjoy them in good health and keep posting away. It is all good. [/QUOTE]

truth be told the reason i got the hp4 was looks. no not looks like people on here say but the color combo. i was ready to pull the trigger on a white pani after i saw what double 0 did. you can ask him that was the route i was going. however i couldnt copy him even though we live nowhere near each other then i saw the hp4 and was like why have 2 of the same problems so i went with it and boy am i happy.
Thank you for the comments and the congrats. if you are a hater well thanks for that too

for those that are 40 slightly older or slightly younger haters gonna hate slaters gonna slate

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/sbtb4.gif

AntiHero said:

Exactly!

Now, I totally appreciate your comparison and I do think you have valid points, Mark. But I have to disagree with you about the visual ratings of the bikes--and believe that a few components are missing from the comparison, at least from my experience riding (and staring at) both the S1000RR and the Panigale.

My first polite disagreement: looks. If the Panigale is a 10, the S1000RR is not even close to a 9. More like a 3.9. And I for one will choose to receive a BJ once a month from a 10 over whatever ... a 4 would beg me to have with her. Allow me to explain.

With a race fairing, the S1000 looks great. But the headlights are an uholy violation of every standard of beauty imaginable. Now, there's an argument that you can't argue about beauty. Except, that is, in one area: Symmetry.

Humans (and other species of mammals) find symmetrical patterns more attractive than asymmetrical ones. These preferences may appear in response to biological signals (1-3), or in situations where there is no obvious signalling context, such as exploratory behaviour (4,5) and human aesthetic response to pattern (6-8). It has been proposed (9,10) that preferences for symmetry have evolved in animals because the degree of symmetry in signals indicates the signaller's quality. By contrast, we show here that symmetry preferences may arise as a by-product of the need to recognize objects irrespective of their position and orientation in the visual field. The existence of sensory biases for symmetry may have been exploited independently by natural selection acting on biological signals and by human artistic innovation. This may account for the observed convergence on symmetrical forms in nature and decorative art(11).

1. Møller, A. P. Nature 357, 238−240 (1992). | Article | PubMed | ISI |
2. Swaddle, J. P. & Cuthill, I. C. Nature 367, 165−166 (1994). | Article |
3. Radesäter, T. & Halldórsdóttir, H. Anim. Behav. 45, 626−628 (1993).
4. Rensch, B. Z. Tierpsychol. 14, 71−99 (1957).
5. Rensch, B. Z. Tierpsychol. 15, 447−461 (1958).
6. Berlyne, D. E. Aesthetics and Psychobiology (Appleton, New York, 1971).
7. Hubbell, M. B. Am. J. Psychol. 53, 46−69 (1940).
8. Musinger, H. & Kessen, W. Psychol. Monogr. 9, 1−24 (1964).
9. Watson, P. J. & Thornhill, R. Trends Ecol. Evol. 9, 21−25 (1994). | Article |
10. Brookes, M. & Pomiankowski, A. Trends Ecol. Evol. 9, 201−202 (1994). | Article |
11. Gombrich, E. H. The Sense of Order 2nd edn (Phaidon, London, 1984).

Because we select our mates (primarily visually), it is theorized that an optic bias towards symmetry is biological: symmetry = good genes, good health. asymmetry = bad genes, illness. Tons of data supports the theory that symmetrical faces are rated as healthier than less symmetrical faces. Furthermore, more symmetrical faces are perceived to be conscientious and agreeable, while asymmetrical faces (especially when the asymmetry is related to the eyes) rank high on the perceived level of neuroticism.

That a manufacture of motorcycles is oblivious to a large body of highly documented, scientific evidence that it could use to its advantage in selling motorcycles is marginally inexcusable. But you don't need science to tell you that the 'face' of the S1000RR = Uncle-Leo levels of bat ....-crazy, which s inexcusable from a design or business perspective. Now, I'm not saying that one should make a decision to buy a bike based on purely superficial reasons. But I find it completely justifiable for someone to NOT buy a bike (or car or phone or whatever) because they're physically repulsed by its appearance. In other words, if she's a great cook, well, make sure she stays in the kitchen and wears gloves before touching my food.

Italian designers have, for a very long time, that a machine can be far more than just a tool to do work. Historically they've understood that our minds and bodies have reactions to sights and sounds that are deep-rooted in our genes. It's what we generally call passion, but more precisely it's that Ducati make bikes with mammalian traits that stimulate our senses and get our blood flowing. And it's not just visual. Hook 100 humans up to electrodes and hormone monitors and 99 of them will experience an adrenaline rush in response to a Ducati snarling at idle; while the motor purrs at 4,000 rpm I imagine blood will reveal a chemical cocktail rivaling the best anti-depressants on the market; and as the purr turns to roaring growl as the engine ascends to redline, the various spectrometers will reveal a god-like mania of compounds surging through the heart and brain.

As for that 1 person out of the study who does not experience any of the above....well, now you know how BMW selects the head of their design team.

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Outstanding

And to think, at one time in history the vast bulk of the German leadership would've rejected the BMW and or ensured it's efficient extermination on the basis of looks being an indicator of inferior breeding.
They weren't too far wrong

mark419ny said:

im out of this post. i wasnt going to say a word because the hp4 is far superior to the 1199 but i was asked. lastly was out in princton nj 2 hp4 one 1199 and guess what hp4 got the most attention.

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Were they all staring at the front of the bike with a confused look on their face?

Good evening gentlemen....

I've been busy working and riding both of my beautiful motorcycles and not on ducati1199.com much the past week or so other than to talk to Jarel (who I once again give a big thanks to for being an amazing forum vendor)! Seriously guys, whatever you need talk to Jarel.

This won't by any means be a good review as I still don't have enough bar time on the BMW to give a truly unbiased review. I also may be all over the place, i'm tired.(...and i'm just a shittier review writer). I'm young (21) and still relatively new to the super bike scene, still riding group one track and working hard on improving my riding skills both on the street and on the track.

Little background first... The 1199 was my first super bike I've ever owned (had an S I put 8,000 street miles on then sold for my R which I've put 8,000 street miles plus 550 track miles). My 1199R is the first (and only) bike I've ever put on a track so I can't yet compare track impressions. Unfortunately I don't think I'll get frame sliders in time to track the HP before the season ends.

There really isn't too much to say. I absolutely love both of these bikes and anybody would be incredibly happy/lucky/whatever you canna call it to be able to own either of these bikes, let alone both.

Somebody already basically said what we already know. The HP4 definitely lacks the way bottom end torque the R has, but once you hit about 8K (where I feel the R really doesn't pull all that great) the HP is ready to fly over the asphalt like an F16 on crank. Street riding once you're moving on the HP is 10x better/smoother/etc than the R as the DDC makes your ride nearly Cadillac smooth. The BMW is nearly 40 pounds heavier than my R (akra, light battery, etc etc) but handles like its 10 pounds less than the R. Street riding wise I feel the BMW takes 20-25 degree leans much smoother/easier than the R. I like the traction/ABS functioning the HP has more than the R. I feel the HP stops quicker than the R, and I love how easily this bike stoppies. (Not that stoppies matter at all)..

As for the heat- the BMW does get extremely hot just like the 1199. BUT the heat on the HP stays more localized to your shin/heel area and doesn't creep to your groin/lower torso area anywhere near as bad as the 1199. Caveat: the heat produced from the 1199 has never bothered me at all. Its a small price to pay for the balls to the wall awesomeness I'm riding. I ride full leather 99% of the time so my body has adjusted to sweating my balls of anyway.

Now, BMW did with the HP4 just like Ducati did with the R, they put a boat load of carbon fiber, but cheaped out on a couple pieces: rear hugger and chain guard on the BMW came in BS cheap plastic. BMW is funny thinking I'll be paying $350 for a Genuine BMW HP Carbon chain cover and another $350 for a genuine BMW HP Carbon fender. China carbon here I come!

Body wise I give BMW a hell of a lot more credit for the work they put into the HP4. The carbon fiber body is simply beautiful. Build quality is perfect, no BS here. BMW put a good amount of time into developing the body/belly pan, side panels etc etc on the HP4 and didn't just slap some carbon pieces on their bike like Ducati did with the R.

Last minute thoughts- the 1199 clearly wins the display contest- I like the conventional tachometer of the HP4, but the real TFT color screen on the 1199 is much more functional to me and just displays all my information in a less cluttered manner. I do like how BMW allows you to go into the settings and remove the blinker warning you get from removing the rear fender blinkers. (Although the 1199 doesn't have any system that causes an error to occur when lamps are removed). I like how the 1199 gives you outdoor air temperature, but really is it necessary on a sport bike? No. Would I prefer to have all the little bells and whistles on all my bikes? Yes. So far I've found fuel consumption on the BMW is more consistent and once you're in the reserve area the HP gives you a range to empty. My 1199 fuel light goes on at 1.5 gallons remaining and stays on for a few miles, and then goes away for 10-20 miles then come backs on steady until its down to zero. Clearly the fuel level sensor in my R sucks. OEM mirrors on the BMW are much more useful than the 1199 and don't vibrate at high speeds as the glass is a solid piece to the mirror mount and not like the 1199 where the glass moves within the mount.

Both bikes are incredible. I can not and will not say either bike is better than the other.
It is understandable that most (if not all) magazines gave the HP4 the winning review as you can have pretty much the same death machine for $6,000 less. BUT, money to me here was no issue. and I'm pretty sure anyone paying $25,000 for an 'exotic' motorcycle could afford $31,000 no problem so money is a nonissue IMO. But if absolute best bargain is in your mind its the HP4 all the way. I do know that I won't need to spend another $3,000 for the best exhaust available as the HP4 comes with the best system available (minus the $468 cat-delete link pipe).Long live the akra. Thanks to me Marks beautiful 1199 will most likely see a new akra exhaust sometime before spring.

Funny, I got HP4 #5640 and I see Mark got #5641.

+1 for the BMW I just hit 1,000 miles and am glad to report my shifter, heel guards, swing arm, engine bolts, fairing bolts, etc etc are all still intact. Nothing has rattled off and more than likely I feel nothing will.

Goodnight.

And yes, i HATE the headlights. I am a BIG fan of symmetrical designs in areas that are capable of being completely symmetrical (tail, front fairing, headlights, etc etc)... Bikes obviously can't be symmetrical on the sides as there is different engine/suspension stuff going on. I could care less what others think about the looks of the bike that I ride; most times at 100+MPH where nobody can even make out that its a BMW.

I have said it like this to people- the Ducati is a 10, and the BMW is a 9.999_ but on totally different sides of the "looks" debate. The BMW is the absolute best looking "loud" bike out there. By loud I mean aggressive design, mostly compared the the Jap bikes that have all the crazy colors and designs in the fairings. The Ducati is simply perfect and is in another league when it comes to looks. It is a "plain" perfection in my opinion. Very classy and simple, but it still just beats out the HP4 in my opinion in terms of overall looks.

I also enjoy the way BMW constructed the HP4 over the 1199. Its nice to be able to change out my windshield and not be able to have to remove: key guard, side fairings, headlight fairing, etc etc just to swap screens. Its also great how easy many other parts are simply easy access on the BMW versus the 1199.

I also thank BMW for actually putting on GREAT quality levers and rear sets on their premier motorcycle. The fact that us R owners paid $6,000 more for a bike only to have to pay another $1,300 for premium rear sets and another $400 for premium folding brake/clutch levers isn't acceptable when purchasing the "ultimate" track bike in their lineup.

wachuko said:

Never really understood why some bike manufactures, even if they do a symmetrical front end, they only turn on one headlight... always bothered me seeing bikes like that...well, still does.

Facial Symmetry and Attractiveness

The BMW is a very capable bike. Nobody is arguing otherwise. But BMW could have spent a bit more time to also make it a beautiful bike.

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Yes the BMW is a very capable bike, and it's a good bike to go with it.
IMO, it's still overrated.

I've said it before, and i'll say it again.
The 1199 is more of a true rider's motorcycle.
It's just a pity the price of admission is so high, but that's just the way of it because DUCATI is actually a low volume manufacturer.
DUCATI does pretty well in terms of design and development, considering their size as a company and their capacity to carry out the amount of development work required to be at the cutting edge.

Regarding the aesthetics of the S1000RR and it's derivatives.
BMW put out some marketing garbage a while back about the headlights.
Something to the effect that it was an example of pure engineering genius, in terms of an exercise in weight reduction, in order to justify the choice to go with the design principals of the Asymmetrical headlights.

It's more of the typical BMW crap that they put out to differentiate themselves from everybody else, in order to make them appear somehow "superior".

The simple fact is, the asymmetrical headlight design was an exercise in styling, and nothing more. IMO, it's backfired on them and it's a good thing one can't see the front of the bikes whilst riding it. The HP 2 Sport was one of the most beautiful bikes they've ever made, and it had Symmetrical headlights.

If weight reduction was truly their ultimate goal.
There's plenty of fat to be trimmed off their bikes without even trying.
They've probably worked out that it costs money in terms of materials and good design to push the boundaries further, and given they're up against all the other great I4 powered bikes out there in the market. It's harder to justify a higher price point.

The rear tail section/seat support frame is one of the glaring examples of overweight componentry just looking at it, if they're all that into weight reduction by good design.
Another example of bloated engineering is the Austenetic Stainless Steel fasteners that commonly BMW use.
I see that Mark is understandably impressed by the fact, they don't look corroded over a period of time, but they do add weight.
Then BMW go and use single use Aluminium fasteners on the engine as well in order to reduce weight. Just wait until he gets the bill for new ones

Brad- very true about being low volume. I enjoy being one of the very few people who owns an 1199R. While finding numbers anywhere is close to impossible I know I'm one of the few to have one in the United States, while thousands of HP4's made their way into the states. In my opinion "limited runs" don't go up to 5,000 or 6,000. But I still enjoy owning "limited edition" bikes that are numbered. IDK, maybe i'm weird.


Aside from weight, I'm also a BIG stickler for a THIN bike. I HATE the GSXR and (especially) the R1 and how they're like 3 feet wide, no joke. Ducati never caught my attention until the 1199's release as the 1098/848/1198 all were wide bikes. BMW does decent slimming work for being an inline-4 bike. Compact design like the 1199, and I like how I can push my ... back far on the HP4 and really tuck like I can't on the 1199.


Headlights- yes, they do things for a reason. Now, I'm sure their release was pure marketing BS. Kind of like how Jeep gave some BS excuse for the HIDEOUS headlights on the new Cherokee.

White13Pani said:

And yes, i HATE the headlights. I am a BIG fan of symmetrical designs in areas that are capable of being completely symmetrical (tail, front fairing, headlights, etc etc)... Bikes obviously can't be symmetrical on the sides as there is different engine/suspension stuff going on. I could care less what others think about the looks of the bike that I ride; most times at 100+MPH where nobody can even make out that its a BMW.

I have said it like this to people- the Ducati is a 10, and the BMW is a 9.999_ but on totally different sides of the "looks" debate. The BMW is the absolute best looking "loud" bike out there. By loud I mean aggressive design, mostly compared the the Jap bikes that have all the crazy colors and designs in the fairings. The Ducati is simply perfect and is in another league when it comes to looks. It is a "plain" perfection in my opinion. Very classy and simple, but it still just beats out the HP4 in my opinion in terms of overall looks.

I also enjoy the way BMW constructed the HP4 over the 1199. Its nice to be able to change out my windshield and not be able to have to remove: key guard, side fairings, headlight fairing, etc etc just to swap screens. Its also great how easy many other parts are simply easy access on the BMW versus the 1199.

I also thank BMW for actually putting on GREAT quality levers and rear sets on their premier motorcycle. The fact that us R owners paid $6,000 more for a bike only to have to pay another $1,300 for premium rear sets and another $400 for premium folding brake/clutch levers isn't acceptable when purchasing the "ultimate" track bike in their lineup.

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Sounds fair enough to me
Glad you're loving it

They're all good bikes.
It all comes down to what one prefers.

double0 said:

I highly doubt money is an issue for him in the first place. At least not enough so to not be able to justify any cost issues associated with Ducati bikes. He's just more pro BMW than anti Ducati, even with all his experienced problems with the Italian.

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Quite right

mark419ny said:

you guys make me laugh. you throw up one picture the same picture of the front of the hp4 and thats it. how many have actually seen the thing in person? the bike is far from ugly. its not as nice looking as the panigale. every single aspect other than looks the bmw smokes the 1199. here is a interesting thing
We own (2) 1199's that have been modified extensively (ECU tuning, real Corsa Exhaust, thinner gaskets, etc) and our modified HP4 will walk away from the Ducati in every gear.

The 1199 makes 194 RWHP and the BMW HP4 makes 215 RWHP for the same amount of work.....

Click to expand...

I've got news for you.
Some people do find the frontal view of the BMW to be un-appealing to say the least.
The same people, are generally not predisposed to drop any sort of coin on something they feel they don't like the look of.
And that's fair enough too.
Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

Regarding actually seeing these things in real life.
How does working on them count?
If I can just say this, and I've said it before.
If and or when BMW get some real stylists on board with the design team. Then DUCATI will have a real battle on their hands in the market.
All BMW have to do, is fix the front end and they'll be justifiably walking out the door.

I think at the moment, BMW are mainly focused on their core model, which is the GSA.
It's where they simply make the most money.
In order to expand their production capacity to feed higher sales volumes of a better looking Superbike, they will have to take some resources away from GSA production.
At the moment Superbikes are not their highest priority as the adventure bike market is currently expanding rapidly and BMW do adventure bikes and the adventure bike scene pretty darn well in every respect.
Picture the HOG scene for HD and WDW for DUCATI, and I think you'll get the picture.

Regarding power.
I put it to you, the ultimate power figures are not that important at the end of the day, unless one "actually can use" all that's available. Which is fine for Drag Racing.
Otherwise one only gets caught up in an irrelevant statistical war comparing specs on a sheet of paper, That's really only important at the local Starbucks anyway. IMO.

The main differentiation between them, and IMO the main reason for the intense loyalty for DUCATI's is the power delivery of the L-twin engine.
The sound of the L-twin is a bonus.
Not that the BMW doesn't sound good either

I also don't get the Akro thing in terms of the value for money component with the BMW's.
There you have an example of an "exhaust upgrade" that is at a premium price point, but it doesn't actually deliver any more power, even though it is undeniably lighter.
The fact that there isn't a specific tune for the engine to go with the Akro is evidence of that.
IMO, it's a bit disappointing to me

After all, DUCATI at least provides a better tune that works with the exhaust system and it gives us more power with any of their accessory exhaust variants.